Status of "Cheat" Mods

[Atrik]

30 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

Atrik ends up saying that smart train doesn’t offer any advantage

I just don't understand why some would care so much for something that can only be noticed by watching production building behavior. I don't care and rather embrace inflicting myself penalties (like sending some starting resources, having the newest teammates...), obviously I don't use these features for the 'advantages' but because they make the game more interesting. This makes that debate asymmetrical since one side will argue about the (unnoticeable) advantages while some just wish to play the game without shallow clicky 'mechanics'. If a feature can automate some unrewarding actions or empower user controls, I will be interested in having them. One is free to use or not, ban in own host... These debates just get slippery when a group of people will start to spread lies, call for global ban, or insist on the topic being some kind of moral matter.

Well, we already debated all of this, but now the thing is: some aren't happy with the fact all hosts don't enforce this ban. It's absolutely not a awareness problem. Nothing is done from most users to hide they use this mod's feature, I and others are often rather forthcoming, wish others would actually use it too, to make games more interesting. + you have a dedicated personnel to announce players using this mod and making them laudatory introductions :
@BreakfastBurrito_007.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

9 hours ago, hyperion said:

Nothing will change with suggested anti cheat measures like only signed mods or make all mods visible. Still only a download and install is required to get around it. You can't ever make it any harder than that for those willing to cheat.

I don’t think it can be stressed enough how important it is to eliminate the grey area of legality which is where all of the impact on clean players occurs. I think visibility mods could accomplish this depending on how they are executed, provided that players and especially hosts are aware of how progui is affecting them in games.

@Atrik

When people play against you they actually have a lot of commands to put in. I guess you can’t relate to that.
 

This makes it so that they don’t have time to investigate your cheating. Players do notice the gameplay meta changes that result from your using progui, but they usually don’t understand why they can beat you in some cases but not in situations where your advantage is maximized. Once this happens a couple times, players watch the replay or spec the next match to see what’s up.

[Atrik]

6 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@Atrik

When people play against you they actually have a lot of commands to put in. I guess you can’t relate to that.
 

This makes it so that they don’t have time to investigate your cheating. Players do notice the gameplay meta changes that result from your using progui, but they usually don’t understand why they can beat you in some cases but not in situations where your advantage is maximized. Once this happens a couple times, players watch the replay or spec the next match to see what’s up.

You spectated enough games where I had it off, to know you lie. Give me 1 example of technique I use with autotrain that doesn't work as well with autoqueue.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Using continuous cavalry production through p1, p2, p3 to overwhelm a clean player's multitasking abilities. This does not perform nearly as well without progui because both players are on an even field in terms of multitasking, and you even avoid doing it when progui is turned off.

One thing you do better without progui is build houses in time. This is because you are actually aware of your production rate when you dont use progui. Isn't that remarkable.

 

 

[Atrik]

commands.txt  @BreakfastBurrito_007
In this replay, I make continuous cavalry production p1 to p3, and continuously exert pressure using autoqueue rather then autotrain. As you can see, my eco is only slightly impacted, while a player rated 2000 is dominated and can't grow. This one is quite good, but I have plenty of others replay like this where this very technique of mine is used successfully without autotrain. As you can imagine, the difference between resizable batch production and fixed production isn't going to affect one's gameplay, nor define his chances of succeeding in a game. The 'advantage' isn't noticeable by any means other then watching how buildings handle production and conclude that it is theoretically more optimized.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Atrik

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Atrik you are alone in thinking that it is not an advantage. Also, individual games are not evidence. In order to truly determine the advantage, some data should analyzed with and without the mod.

Why even debate whether or not its an advantage. We want to move forward and find a solution.

Edited November 4, 2024 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I have a replay where things were different.

[hyperion]

4 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

At least making mods visible would give all players better access to that information, instead of everyone gradually finding out when someone mentions it or says someone else is using a mod. Sure, there will be cheaters who manage to disguise their mods somehow, but it’s better than nothing. And giving an important part of the community some kind of response (even if it's not perfect) is important.

if the idea behind is to enable "never heard of that mod, let me check it might be something good" then yes, there is merit. But if @Atrik shows up and that trainer assist thingy isn't listed will you trust it? You won't, right? As such making it worthless for such purpose.

[Norse_Harold]

26 minutes ago, hyperion said:

if the idea behind is to enable "never heard of that mod, let me check it might be something good" then yes, there is merit. But if @Atrik shows up and that trainer assist thingy isn't listed will you trust it? You won't, right? As such making it worthless for such purpose.

Please visualize combining Proposals 2 and 3 with reactive checking of replays for mods that offer an advantage.

Whether we trust the report of mods in use by a user during gamesetup depends on whether the user is trustworthy. That can be determined over time.

"Trust, but verify," is a good motto in my opinion.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Norse_Harold

[guerringuerrin]

21 minutes ago, hyperion said:

if the idea behind is to enable "never heard of that mod, let me check it might be something good" then yes, there is merit. But if @Atrik shows up and that trainer assist thingy isn't listed will you trust it? You won't, right? As such making it worthless for such purpose.

Frankly, I don't think Atrik will hide his mod and continue using it.
There are several advantages to having that information in the gamesteup. Not only to warn that someone is using an unwanted mod (although that can be breached). But also to check the compatibility of the mods, to avoid oos and disconnections.
As I said, we should try another approach and try to build trust

[Stan`]

5 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

like the idea of using a script in replay pallas, would it be done on upload to flag replays or something users can run if they like?

It's more general info about the replay. See https://replay-pallas.wildfiregames.ovh/Replays/ReplayDetails/6F68BB674044541A (Should work for most replays)

 

[rossenburg]

On 31/10/2024 at 9:08 AM, ffm2 said:

The easiest way to identify cheating with proGUI is the quickstart part. It sends 7 commands in one turn, at about turn 12.

Are you aware QuickStart is a mod on it own?

[ffm2]

 

23 minutes ago, rossenburg said:

On 31/10/2024 at 10:08 AM, ffm2 said:

The easiest way to identify cheating with proGUI is the quickstart part. It sends 7 commands in one turn, at about turn 12.

Are you aware QuickStart is a mod on it own?

It is a mod too as I read here:

On 31/05/2023 at 5:52 PM, Mentula said:

In short: proGUI mod embeds QuickStart, with differences. But if you enjoy stories and moral concerns, keep reading.

I also know, I should try it some time and then I can benefit of it too. It's just 7 resources at the start. Whats the big deal etc.

Edited November 5, 2024 by ffm2

[Dakara]

Is it possible to see the list of players' mods? this way seems correct. I have no issue to play with someone use theses cheat if everyrone agree in the game. But i like play with the same weapon, even if it give a very little advantage It shouldn't be allowed against me.

This reduces the number of possible errors, the player cannot forget to reproduce by example.

The game already has a function for queuing units. I don't like playing against bots.

 

Now I feel bad for playing against bots without knowing about them. It's like digital rape.

 

Edited Sunday at 14:30 by Dakara

[Seleucids]

22 minutes ago, Dakara said:

s it possible to see the list of players' mods?

Theoretically yes. But smart kids know how to hide their mods from you. Knowing the mod names also doesn't change much because you don't know what's hidden behind the name in the mod source code. It is easy to edit the source code of benign mods. 

But don't worry Dakara, the cheat features have been discovered a patched. Cheat mods no longer exist because the malicious commands are forbidden by the engine.  Currently there is no easy way to cheat, unlike A26 where just editing a few lines of code will get you everything. 

25 minutes ago, Dakara said:

Now I feel bad for playing against bots without knowing about them. It's like digital rape.

 

The bots are the biggest cheaters because they have x1.56 bonus in eco and 0.80 bonus in training time. The also see everything that you do. OP.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 hour ago, Seleucids said:

Currently there is no easy way to cheat, unlike A26 where just editing a few lines of code will get you everything. 

If you read the above discussion you will see that there is indeed a way to cheat, and that this is what Dakara was talking about.

[Seleucids]

42 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If you read the above discussion you will see that there is indeed a way to cheat, and that this is what Dakara was talking about.

I see nothing other than mentions of ProGUI and Quickstart. The other cheats discussed in November have been patched up. 

I wont argue whether proGUI is cheat or not. If you feel that ProGUI and Quickstart are cheats, you can use it yourself. As far as I know, no host bans ProGUI nor Quickstart. You are always welcome to use them in  my host. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

3 minutes ago, Seleucids said:

I see nothing other than mentions of ProGUI and Quickstart. The other cheats discussed in November have been patched up. 

I wont argue whether proGUI is cheat or not. If you feel that ProGUI and Quickstart are cheats, you can use it yourself. As far as I know, no host bans ProGUI nor Quickstart. You are always welcome to use them in  my host. 

There are a couple hosts than ban it, most players are unaware of it and users do not mention that they have it. Just because progui users are getting away with it doesn't mean that its fair. I don't use progui because I enjoy the game and have dignity.

[Seleucids]

5 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

There are a couple hosts than ban it, most players are unaware of it and users do not mention that they have it. Just because progui users are getting away with it doesn't mean that its fair. I don't use progui because I enjoy the game and have dignity.

In that case, maybe you can find the mods of users in mainlog.html and the replay file

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

46 minutes ago, Seleucids said:

In that case, maybe you can find the mods of users in mainlog.html and the replay file

well for people who know what to look for its extremely obvious in game, but none of this is visible before game start. My main concern is not detection but wanting to play a clean game. Somehow its the duty of 7 players in a tg host to agree that progui is banned and no responsibility falls on the person using the cheat, naturally it is very rare to get 7 players who are even aware of the advantage that progui provides so most people would rather just start the game.

[seeh]

4 hours ago, Seleucids said:

In that case, maybe you can find the mods of users in mainlog.html and the replay file

and online at https://replay-pallas.wildfiregames.ovh/

[Dakara]

6 hours ago, Seleucids said:

I see nothing other than mentions of ProGUI and Quickstart. The other cheats discussed in November have been patched up. 

I wont argue whether proGUI is cheat or not. If you feel that ProGUI and Quickstart are cheats, you can use it yourself. As far as I know, no host bans ProGUI nor Quickstart. You are always welcome to use them in  my host. 

Helllo,

If a bot performs tasks on your behalf and this feature isn't available in the vanilla version, it's considered cheating. Other players don't have the option to do the same. I don't want to play against cheaters, whether they're weak or strong; it's the same. I'm convinced that someone who focuses on rushing with their cavalry will manage it better because they won't have to click on these buildings and produce, or even think about it. The player without the mod won't have this advantage.

If QuickStart were in the vanilla game, configurable and accessible to everyone, I wouldn't like this feature, but I wouldn't oppose it. I also think that issuing commands during pause is a form of cheating for those with autociv. I find it comfortable with all the pauses in the games. The goal isn't to issue 50 orders but just 1 or 2. Should issuing orders during pause be in the vanilla game? I'll let you debate that.

People don't ban it ,because they don't know it exist. 

If tomorrow a super developer creates a bot that plays entirely in your place, performs excellent military maneuvers, automatically sends resources, and starts transitioning farms on its own, would you still find that acceptable?

[seeh]

I was thinking it would be helpful if players could use multiple names or "tags" attached to their main name to indicate the kind of assistance mods they're using.

Concept:

Imagine being able to add tags to your player name like <MyName> + <BotEco> or even add multiple tags like <MyName> + <BotEco> + <Micro>. This would instantly tell other players what kind of support you're employing during the game.
<MyName> + <AutoCiv> + <kateMod> + ....

 

[Atrik]

37 minutes ago, Dakara said:

People don't ban it ,because they don't know it exist. 

Almost all hosts, I play with, I'm 100% certain they know it exist and that i use. Absolutely nothing is made in attempt to hide it's existence, even the contrary. So that point is totally made up.

As for the game-play impacts, sure it have a impact. It's negligible on the scale of a game as there is much more important stuff, especially in complex games like 4v4, so the priority, as i see it, would actually be user experience, and prize players decision making over them being good clicky clickers.
I have this thoughts because you mention the autociv active pause that is the perfect example of wanting to @#&#036;% on great UX improvement feature for some imaginary competitive standards rules. It's a free game, goal is fun, nobody have stake on game outcomes. There will never be 0AD Esports in the foreseeable future. But if you feel you cannot bear that someone is using any feature, then you should host with rules that prevent its use, or any other rule you want. Basically same conclusion then the billions debates before this one. And it's a great way to have a middle ground for disagreeing people.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

How is anyone to know that no one is hiding it? lol

 

If you are so ethical, why don't you support features that allow everyone to know what mods you are using? lol