Status of "Cheat" Mods

[Atrik]

30 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

Atrik ends up saying that smart train doesn’t offer any advantage

I just don't understand why some would care so much for something that can only be noticed by watching production building behavior. I don't care and rather embrace inflicting myself penalties (like sending some starting resources, having the newest teammates...), obviously I don't use these features for the 'advantages' but because they make the game more interesting. This makes that debate asymmetrical since one side will argue about the (unnoticeable) advantages while some just wish to play the game without shallow clicky 'mechanics'. If a feature can automate some unrewarding actions or empower user controls, I will be interested in having them. One is free to use or not, ban in own host... These debates just get slippery when a group of people will start to spread lies, call for global ban, or insist on the topic being some kind of moral matter.

Well, we already debated all of this, but now the thing is: some aren't happy with the fact all hosts don't enforce this ban. It's absolutely not a awareness problem. Nothing is done from most users to hide they use this mod's feature, I and others are often rather forthcoming, wish others would actually use it too, to make games more interesting. + you have a dedicated personnel to announce players using this mod and making them laudatory introductions :
@BreakfastBurrito_007.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

9 hours ago, hyperion said:

Nothing will change with suggested anti cheat measures like only signed mods or make all mods visible. Still only a download and install is required to get around it. You can't ever make it any harder than that for those willing to cheat.

I don’t think it can be stressed enough how important it is to eliminate the grey area of legality which is where all of the impact on clean players occurs. I think visibility mods could accomplish this depending on how they are executed, provided that players and especially hosts are aware of how progui is affecting them in games.

@Atrik

When people play against you they actually have a lot of commands to put in. I guess you can’t relate to that.
 

This makes it so that they don’t have time to investigate your cheating. Players do notice the gameplay meta changes that result from your using progui, but they usually don’t understand why they can beat you in some cases but not in situations where your advantage is maximized. Once this happens a couple times, players watch the replay or spec the next match to see what’s up.

[Atrik]

6 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@Atrik

When people play against you they actually have a lot of commands to put in. I guess you can’t relate to that.
 

This makes it so that they don’t have time to investigate your cheating. Players do notice the gameplay meta changes that result from your using progui, but they usually don’t understand why they can beat you in some cases but not in situations where your advantage is maximized. Once this happens a couple times, players watch the replay or spec the next match to see what’s up.

You spectated enough games where I had it off, to know you lie. Give me 1 example of technique I use with autotrain that doesn't work as well with autoqueue.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Using continuous cavalry production through p1, p2, p3 to overwhelm a clean player's multitasking abilities. This does not perform nearly as well without progui because both players are on an even field in terms of multitasking, and you even avoid doing it when progui is turned off.

One thing you do better without progui is build houses in time. This is because you are actually aware of your production rate when you dont use progui. Isn't that remarkable.

 

 

[Atrik]

commands.txt  @BreakfastBurrito_007
In this replay, I make continuous cavalry production p1 to p3, and continuously exert pressure using autoqueue rather then autotrain. As you can see, my eco is only slightly impacted, while a player rated 2000 is dominated and can't grow. This one is quite good, but I have plenty of others replay like this where this very technique of mine is used successfully without autotrain. As you can imagine, the difference between resizable batch production and fixed production isn't going to affect one's gameplay, nor define his chances of succeeding in a game. The 'advantage' isn't noticeable by any means other then watching how buildings handle production and conclude that it is theoretically more optimized.

Edited November 4 by Atrik

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Atrik you are alone in thinking that it is not an advantage. Also, individual games are not evidence. In order to truly determine the advantage, some data should analyzed with and without the mod.

Why even debate whether or not its an advantage. We want to move forward and find a solution.

Edited November 4 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I have a replay where things were different.

[hyperion]

4 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

At least making mods visible would give all players better access to that information, instead of everyone gradually finding out when someone mentions it or says someone else is using a mod. Sure, there will be cheaters who manage to disguise their mods somehow, but it’s better than nothing. And giving an important part of the community some kind of response (even if it's not perfect) is important.

if the idea behind is to enable "never heard of that mod, let me check it might be something good" then yes, there is merit. But if @Atrik shows up and that trainer assist thingy isn't listed will you trust it? You won't, right? As such making it worthless for such purpose.

[Norse_Harold]

26 minutes ago, hyperion said:

if the idea behind is to enable "never heard of that mod, let me check it might be something good" then yes, there is merit. But if @Atrik shows up and that trainer assist thingy isn't listed will you trust it? You won't, right? As such making it worthless for such purpose.

Please visualize combining Proposals 2 and 3 with reactive checking of replays for mods that offer an advantage.

Whether we trust the report of mods in use by a user during gamesetup depends on whether the user is trustworthy. That can be determined over time.

"Trust, but verify," is a good motto in my opinion.

Edited November 4 by Norse_Harold

[guerringuerrin]

21 minutes ago, hyperion said:

if the idea behind is to enable "never heard of that mod, let me check it might be something good" then yes, there is merit. But if @Atrik shows up and that trainer assist thingy isn't listed will you trust it? You won't, right? As such making it worthless for such purpose.

Frankly, I don't think Atrik will hide his mod and continue using it.
There are several advantages to having that information in the gamesteup. Not only to warn that someone is using an unwanted mod (although that can be breached). But also to check the compatibility of the mods, to avoid oos and disconnections.
As I said, we should try another approach and try to build trust

[Stan`]

5 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

like the idea of using a script in replay pallas, would it be done on upload to flag replays or something users can run if they like?

It's more general info about the replay. See https://replay-pallas.wildfiregames.ovh/Replays/ReplayDetails/6F68BB674044541A (Should work for most replays)

 

[rossenburg]

On 31/10/2024 at 9:08 AM, ffm2 said:

The easiest way to identify cheating with proGUI is the quickstart part. It sends 7 commands in one turn, at about turn 12.

Are you aware QuickStart is a mod on it own?

[ffm2]

 

23 minutes ago, rossenburg said:

On 31/10/2024 at 10:08 AM, ffm2 said:

The easiest way to identify cheating with proGUI is the quickstart part. It sends 7 commands in one turn, at about turn 12.

Are you aware QuickStart is a mod on it own?

It is a mod too as I read here:

On 31/05/2023 at 5:52 PM, Mentula said:

In short: proGUI mod embeds QuickStart, with differences. But if you enjoy stories and moral concerns, keep reading.

I also know, I should try it some time and then I can benefit of it too. It's just 7 resources at the start. Whats the big deal etc.

Edited November 5 by ffm2