Suggestion for chariots

[Barcodes]

I feel like chariots need to be changed because barely anyone actually uses them and they have a much higher hit-point than other units so they aren't the ideal choice of champion.

The suggestion I'm proposing is to allow the soldier who shoots to be able to shoot at enemies while the chariot is moving. It would make sense for this to work because the guy shooting isn't controlling the horses dragging the chariot so it's actually realistic.

I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this as I think it should be a thing already.

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Its been discussed, also there was a patch for this at some point.

Also, there are changes to chariot stats in a27: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5119

Basically more hp, a little faster but slower to accelerate, more expensive.

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, Barcodes said:

The suggestion I'm proposing is to allow the soldier who shoots to be able to shoot at enemies while the chariot is moving. It would make sense for this to work because the guy shooting isn't controlling the horses dragging the chariot so it's actually realistic.

 

I like this (I think I actually suggested it myself at some time in the past) but I think it requires new code to do. 

Chariots has been something that everyone agrees needs to get changed but there isn't a lot of agreement on what that change should look like or the desired change (trampling) has to get new code to be possible. As a result, we have what we have for now. 

Edited March 27 by chrstgtr

[Barcodes]

8 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I like this (I think I actually suggested it myself at some time in the past) but I think it requires new code to do. 

Chariots has been something that everyone agrees needs to get changed but there isn't a lot of agreement on what that change should look like or the desired change (trampling) has to get new code to be possible. As a result, we have what we have for now. 

I understand why people might disagree as if u micro them perfectly they are impossible to hit pretty much so there should be restrictions on how much the soldier can shoot. Like only until 90 degrees or something and then say ur running away u can't shoot.

 

[ChronA]

I think chariots are just a weird weapons system to model in the simulation systems of 0AD, because unlike almost everything else in the game they are both extremely multi-role and (or arguably because) by the era the game takes place in their entire advantage seems to have been 100% psychological rather than kinetic. (With the possible exception of Britons vs Britons.)

Do you need a heavy cavalry weapon that will smash through enemy formations with pure momentum? Chariots will do that. But horse riders will do it better, while also being more survivable and costing less.

Do you need a mobile archery platform that will rain arrows on your enemies while keeping you out of reach of foes? Chariots will do that. But horse archers will do it better, while also being more survivable and costing less.

What does a chariot do better than cavalry? Only that is shows you were both rich and crazy enough to show up to war in a chariot. That means you are probably an emperor or his immediate family: with an entire army, plus a lot of elite body guards personally tasked with backing him up. So whoever he decides to charge at and then makes the colossal mistake of standing their ground automatically earns the wrath of that entire apparatus.

It's like the president of the USA taking Air Force One into a dog fight. The 747 is not a good choice if he intends to achieve a kinetic victory, but if the other guy is smart he will immediately surrender regardless. Am I wrong?

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

@ChronA I agree it's difficult to create a role for chariots with the current game mechanics. So without having to add a bunch of features, I'd say turn them into some kind of melee glass cannon. Kind of like Petards in AOE2, but only against units, not buildings.

[Player of 0AD]

6 hours ago, Barcodes said:

 

The suggestion I'm proposing is to allow the soldier who shoots to be able to shoot at enemies while the chariot is moving.

 

 

That would obviously be OP.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, ChronA said:

It's like the president of the USA taking Air Force One into a dog fight.

The current one is capable but his advisors wouldn't let him.

[Lion.Kanzen]

My idea is that they were a unit with a dual role, melee and range..

With melee it would be like AoE  2 Cataphract.

And with the range damage  it would be another horse archer.

 

 

Edited March 27 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

My idea is that they were a unit with a dual role, melee and range..

With melee it would be like AoE  2 Cataphract.

And with the range damage  it would be another horse archer.

 

 

I like how visually the cataphracts are explained in AoE 2.

The video is in Spanish, it talks about trample damage, but visually the combat power is understood.

The description said the cataphracts sweep through.

Edited March 27 by Lion.Kanzen

[ShadowOfHassen]

3 hours ago, ChronA said:

It's like the president of the USA taking Air Force One into a dog fight. The 747 is not a good choice if he intends to achieve a kinetic victory, but if the other guy is smart he will immediately surrender regardless. Am I wrong?

 

I would pay good money to see that happen.

[Genava55]

Caesar accounts about the Celtic chariots:

Caesar, DBG, 4.24 The natives, however, perceived the design of the Romans. So they sent forward their cavalry and charioteers — an arm which it is their regular custom to employ in fights — and, following up with the rest of their forces, they sought to prevent our troops from disembarking. Disembarkation was a matter of extreme difficulty, for the following reasons. The ships, on account of their size, could not be run ashore, except in deep water; the troops — though they did not know the ground, had not their hands free, and were loaded with the great and grievous weight of their arms — had nevertheless at one and the same time to leap down from the vessels, to stand firm in the waves, and to fight the enemy. The enemy, on the other hand, had all their limbs free, and knew the ground exceeding well; and either standing on dry land or advancing a little way into the water, they boldly hurled their missiles, or spurred on their horses, which were trained to it. Frightened by all this, and wholly inexperienced in this sort of fighting, our troops did not press on with the same fire and force as they were accustomed to show in land engagements.

Caesar, DBG, 4.32 Meanwhile one legion, called the Seventh, had been sent as usual to collect corn; nor as yet had any suspicion of hostilities intervened, since part of the people remained in the fields, and part were actually frequent visitors to the camp. Then the outposts on duty before the gates of the camp reported to Caesar that a greater dust than usual was to be seen in that quarter to which the legion had marched. Caesar suspected the truth — that some fresh design had been started by the natives — and ordered the cohorts which were on outpost to proceed with him to the quarter in question, two of the others to relieve them on outpost, and the rest to arm and follow him immediately. When he had advanced some little way from the camp, he found that his troops were being hard pressed by the enemy and were holding their ground with difficulty: the legion was crowded together, while missiles were being hurled from all sides. The fact was that when the corn had been cut from the rest of the neighbourhood one part remained, and the enemy, supposing that our troops would come hither, had hidden by night in the woods; then, when the men were scattered and, having grounded arms, were engaged in cutting corn, they had suddenly attacked them. They had killed a few, throwing the rest into confusion before they could form up, and at the same time surrounding them with horsemen and chariots.

Caesar, DBG, 4.33 Their manner of fighting from chariots is as follows. First of all they drive in all directions and hurl missiles, and so by the mere terror that the teams inspire and by the noise of the wheels they generally throw ranks into confusion. When they have worked their way in between the troops of cavalry, they leap down from the chariots and fight on foot. Meanwhile the charioteers retire gradually from the combat, and dispose the chariots in such fashion that, if the warriors are hard pressed by the host of the enemy, they may have a ready means of retirement to their own side. Thus they show in action the mobile of cavalry and the stability of infantry; and by daily use and practice they become so accomplished that they are ready to gallop their teams down the steepest of slopes without loss of control, to check and turn them in a moment, to run along the pole, stand on the yoke, and then, quick as lightning, to dart back into the chariot.

Caesar, DBG, 5.15 The horsemen and charioteers of the enemy engaged in fierce conflict with our cavalry on the march, with the result, however, that our troops proved their superiority in all respects, and drove them into the woods and highlands; but, pursuing too eagerly after slaying several of the enemy, they lost some of their own number. After an interval, however, when our troops were off their guard and engaged in entrenching the camp, the enemy suddenly dashed out from the woods, and charging the detachments on outpost duty in advance of the camp, they fought fiercely. And though Caesar sent up two cohorts in support — and those the first cohorts of two legions — and two detachments had taken post with a very slight interval between them, the enemy most gallantly broke through in the middle (as our troops were disconcerted by the novel kind of fighting), and retired safely from the field. On that day a tribune, Quintus Laberius Durus, was killed. The enemy were driven back when more cohorts had been sent up.

Caesar, DBG, 5.16 The action took place in front of the camp and under the eyes of all; and it was clear that in all such fighting our infantry, by reason of their heavy armament, since they could neither pursue a retiring enemy nor venture far from the standards, were but poorly fitted for an enemy of this kind. It was clear, again, that our cavalry fought with great risk, because the enemy often retired of deliberate purpose, and, when they had separated our horse a little from the legions, leapt down from their chariots and fought on foot to our disadvantage. Their cavalry tactics, however, threatened us with exactly the same danger in retirement or pursuit. Add to this that the enemy never fought in close array, but in small parties with wide intervals; and had detachments posted at regular stations, so that one party covered another in turn, and fresh, unspent warriors took the place of the battle-weary.

Caesar, DBG, 5.17 Next day the enemy took post on the hills, at a distance from the camp, and began to show themselves in small parties and to assail our horsemen, though more feebly than on the day before. But at noon, when Caesar had sent three legions and all the cavalry with Gaius Trebonius, the lieutenant-general, to get forage, the enemy swooped suddenly from all directions upon the foraging parties, with such vigour that they did not stop short of the legions drawn up for battle. Our troops charged them fiercely and drove them back, and did not bring the pursuit to an end until the cavalry, relying on the support of the legions they saw behind them, drove the enemy headlong and slew a great number of them, giving them no chance to rally or stand fast, nor to leap down from their chariots. After this rout the succours which had assembled from all quarters took their departure; and never afterwards did the enemy engage us at their full strength.

Caesar, DBG, 5.19 When Cassivellaunus, as above set forth, had relinquished all hope of a struggle, and disbanded the greater part of his force, with the remainder — about four thousand charioteers — he kept our marches under observation, and, withdrawing a little from the route, concealed himself in entangled positions among the woods. In whatever districts he had learnt that we intended to march he drove all cattle and human beings from the fields into the woods; then, whenever our cavalry dashed out over the fields to plunder and devastate more freely, he sent out charioteers from the woods by every road and path, engaging our cavalry to their great danger, and preventing them by the fear thus caused from ranging farther afield. The only course left to Caesar was to allow no party to remove very far from the main column of the legions, and to do as much harm to the enemy in laying waste the fields and in conflagrations as the marching powers of the legionaries could accomplish.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

16 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

That would obviously be OP

That would obviously depend on how you implement it. 

[Philip the Swaggerless]

22 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

My idea is that they were a unit with a dual role, melee and range..

With melee it would be like AoE  2 Cataphract.

And with the range damage  it would be another horse archer.

I like this idea best. Just as long as you don't have to change weapons it for 6 seconds (upgrade implementation) like a persian immortal xD.

Right click = attack based on distance to enemy

Ctrl right click = forced melee attack

23 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 I agree it's difficult to create a role for chariots with the current game mechanics. So without having to add a bunch of features, I'd say turn them into some kind of melee glass cannon. Kind of like Petards in AOE2, but only against units, not buildings.

I like this idea second best.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Of the suggested options in this thread or elsewhere that you are aware of, which ones are currently (or easily) implementable?  Maybe once we know these we could vote on what people like?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 27/03/2024 at 3:19 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

@ChronA I agree it's difficult to create a role for chariots with the current game mechanics. So without having to add a bunch of features, I'd say turn them into some kind of melee glass cannon. Kind of like Petards in AOE2, but only against units, not buildings.

I think this idea could be fun and cool, but IMO it would have to be a unique chariot unit, like the scythed chariots for pers and/or seles.

it would make a lot of sense for pers since they already have a champ cav archer anyway.

Then other chariots like the maury ones or briton ones should just inherit the chariot mixin as they currently do in svn.

Edited March 28 by real_tabasco_sauce

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Yeah, Scythed Chariots could be a melee suicide unit, basically. Brit and Maur chariots are basically missile platforms. We can figure something else out for those, like that old Briton video I posted a while back.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I don't like that it's going to be a suicide unit.

Sound suitable for a trash unit.

----Which by the way gave me an idea for a suicide unit.-----

Chariots were considered elite.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

45 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Chariots were considered elite.

Yet, nearly always defeated on the battlefield in this era.

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yet, nearly always defeated on the battlefield in this era.

Let's give it about 100 more years of glory.

It would be replaced by the Cataphract as heavy melee unit in the history.

Pontus would be the last to use it in the Mediterranean.

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Let's give it about 100 more years of glory.

It would be replaced by the Cataphract as heavy melee unit in the history.

Pontus would be the last to use it in the Mediterranean.

It occurs to me that it could be a unit that as it loses health increases the trample attack but only in melee mode.

Something like a state of madness and chaos.

But as it attacks it loses health fast.

I wouldn't want it to be like the iberian fireship.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It occurs to me that it could be a unit that as it loses health increases the trample attack but only in melee mode.

Something like a state of madness and chaos.

But as it attacks it loses health fast.

I wouldn't want it to be like the iberian fireship.

Problem is it needs more code.

[Lion.Kanzen]

41 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Problem is it needs more code.

That is always the problem.

They will reject it and throw tantrums....
 

They have complained about less serious things.

I'd rather have a burning hay wagon as a suicide unit.

[Lion.Kanzen]

51 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

That is always the problem.

They will reject it and throw tantrums....
 

They have complained about less serious things.

I'd rather have a burning hay wagon as a suicide unit.

 

Off topic but still...

Definitive I want unconventional war units.

Edited March 29 by Lion.Kanzen