The pictures of the women in the game

[vajei]

I think that in some civilizations, women's appearance is not modest. I would be happy if their appearance in the game would be changed to a more modest appearance.
If you don't intend to do it with everyone, is it possible to at least have such an option?

[Gurken Khan]

Personally, I think they are modest; if I'm not mistaken, sometimes it was even deviated from sources to give the women tops when historically their torsos would be naked.

Except for the Mauryan female champions - which are basically bikini babes - I don't feel that this is generally viewed as a problem, so I don't expect much effort to be put into; but as a mod, of course everything is possible.

[sarcoma]

You're nickname is not modest, vajei

[ShadowOfHassen]

So I think this is a very touchy subject. I like to think we should be historically accurate, but then again I would be pretty annoyed and probably stop playing if some of the women went around topless even if there is a historical precedent and in some cultures it is conceivable that it was not taboo (I remember seeing that some African tribes even now women go topless.)

@vajei , which civs do you think are bad? I think Mauryan and the non ptolmy Egyptians have it.(Sorry I don't remeber the name)

I'm going to pick on the Mauryans for a moment because I have some thoughts about this. First, do we have proof that Mauryan women wore than and not something more modest? I mean, there are sources to say Spartan women only wore skirts, and we didn't do that. I find it difficult to believe that statistically Mauryan women wore that everywhere. 

 However, gatherers are more believable than the champions because-- armor? You'd think they would try at least some. (Of course someone could say that the Mauryan were not an armor like civilization, and I'd say perhaps, but still unless they were bezerkers one would think they'd try at least a padded something.

Also, I'd love to see the sources of the Mauryan female champions, partly because I'm not buying their outfit and partly because I want to know more about them.

Edited July 12, 2023 by ShadowOfHassen
Update

[hyperion]

@sarcoma is obviously on the right track, this isn't about modesty, else we would talk about modest fanatics ...

[ShadowOfHassen]

I'm not necessary saying about modesty because like-- the fanatics, however @sarcoma's reply wasn't really constructive.

 

 

[vajei]

The claim that it used to be like this is not so relevant, because it is nice to stick to history, but where it interferes with the game it is clearly not the main thing. The soldiers don't have to sleep at night, and the barrage of arrows never ends. If it's not appropriate to have pictures of women in the game like there are now - which is what I'm claiming - it doesn't matter how they used to be dressed.
P.S. I am Jewish, and it is important for me to point out that we had modesty rules even back then. But we were not a civilization, because those civilizations that followed their vile lusts, expelled us and murdered us. And in general, we had no desire to conquer the world with wars and killing.

[Genava55]

16 hours ago, vajei said:

But we were not a civilization, because those civilizations that followed their vile lusts, expelled us and murdered us.

Refrain from such comments.

16 hours ago, vajei said:

The claim that it used to be like this is not so relevant, because it is nice to stick to history, but where it interferes with the game it is clearly not the main thing.

This is a game in which you can kill and destroy other people, and the thing bothering you is seeing the belly of a woman?

[alre]

this is possible with a mod anyway. anyone can make it if they want.

[ChronA]

On 16/07/2023 at 2:18 PM, vajei said:

But we were not a civilization, because those civilizations that followed their vile lusts, expelled us and murdered us. And in general, we had no desire to conquer the world with wars and killing.

Seconded that you should refrain from such comments.

This is a community of history enthusiasts, and some are liable to take umbrage with claims like that. While it is true that the ancient Jews did suffer long periods of foreign occupation throughout their history, so did almost everyone else in the region. And during their periods of autonomy I think you would be hard pressed to argue they were perfect models of principled restraint. They did their fair share of conquest and war crimes to their neighbors, just like their neighbors did to them. It's well documented in the Tanakh.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but if you wish to participate productively is a community like this you need to follow certain rules. Those rules are set by the majority consensus. They include not casting blanket judgments on the moral worth of any ethnic group relative to others, and not judging the behaviors of ancient peoples by modern standards. And more broadly, where no consensus exists on standards of behavior or acceptability, we default to a permissive standard that prioritizes historical accuracy.

Thus it doesn't matter whether you believe the portraits are modest. What matters is that there's no majority consensus about what modest is (beyond possibly a bikini level of minimum coverage, and even that might be contentious), but we do know some ancient (and modern) groups followed different conventions of modesty. So what we have now is the right standard. If you don't like it, make a mod.

[Norse_Harold]

Technically, these are the (draft) rules of the forum and other WFG communication systems besides the lobby. 2022-10-19 code of conduct revision 2.pdf See section 9 for some rules that are relevant, such as no personal attacks and not purposefully demeaning the worth of others. Meanwhile, section 10 has restrictions on pornography or other sexually offensive materials. So, imagery of genitalia or sexual intercourse are forbidden, but I don't see rules preventing showing skin on other parts of the body. I think that social media have similar standards. There are even uncensored and non-age restricted videos on Youtube of African tribes with topless women. The reason it's allowed on Youtube is because it's nudity without sexual context. It's a similar situation with 0 A.D. It's bare skin without sexual context.

But, I agree with ChronA's statement about rules if it's interpreted as an attempt at describing part of a common moral code that doesn't have bias toward a certain culture or religion, or the volunteerism and nonpartisan culture of WFG developers.

Consistent with volunteerism, if you are highly motivated to see a change to the artwork in the game then you can make a mod yourself, or pay a developer to make one, that changes the artwork. You can distribute it, and like-minded people will use it. But, don't expect it to become the new default artwork, unless there is a sea change in the culture of the player base.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Norse_Harold

[halep]

On 10/07/2023 at 4:52 PM, vajei said:

f you don't intend to do it with everyone, is it possible to at least have such an option?

You can make a mod that changes the look of all units in the game. You may find this guide useful: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Modding_Guide

Be sure to add the line

"ignoreInCompatibilityChecks": true,

in your mod.json to make the mod compatible with other people who are not using it.

[CovenantKillerJ]

And you aren't bothered by the naked fanatics of the Gauls? Or the Noba tribesmen? Things should be historically accurate to reflect reality at the time as closely as possible, whether people like or not. Mods exist for those who don't like it, and if there aren't any try to make one yourself.

Edited July 19, 2023 by CovenantKillerJ

[maroder]

Mod note: This game is focused on simulated ancient warfare. Please refrain from going way off topic with current politics. That just ruins any discussion.

[Joe-Lay]

I think the dual-gender mod avaliable in the install-mods page implements its own pictures for citizens, which you might like.

[trat444]

I disagree. I don't think a game about different cultures should require all those cultures being depicted to conform to one view or opinion on nudity. 

Why should your RL cultural norms get to dictate the RL cultural norms of every other culture?

[Joe-Lay]

On 04/11/2023 at 5:22 PM, trat444 said:

Why should your RL cultural norms get to dictate the RL cultural norms of every other culture?

Because this is a game in the Christian hemisphere. While I am not going to say everyone affiliated or who uses it is Christian, it is published in a mostly christian society. Thus, I hope you can see why someone would have a legitimate concern about proper decency.

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, Joe-Lay said:

Because this is a game in the Christian hemisphere.

How many of the civs featured were christian?

 

1 hour ago, Joe-Lay said:

While I am not going to say everyone affiliated or who uses it is Christian, it is published in a mostly christian society.

Do you have any numbers of users by region to back that up?

 

1 hour ago, Joe-Lay said:

Thus, I hope you can see why someone would have a legitimate concern about proper decency.

Nope, I don't. (And that's the friendliest and most restrained answer I have.)

[Joe-Lay]

22 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Do you have any numbers of users by region to back that up?

No. I was going by the way the website was setup. It felt more like a European or American site than many.

 

22 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Nope, I don't. (And that's the friendliest and most restrained answer I have.)

Thank you for your self-restraint. It's a noble virtue.  Now please allow me to explain. The author of this topic appears to posses some standards of Christian decency. They are concerned that the models violate them. Since they hold, or so I believe, their Christian morals as important, they desire to avoid this conflict. If you disagree, I'll take your word since you have been here longer than I and probably know the situation better than I.

P.S. Concerning my remark about the hemisphere. I meant that I believed a good portion of the game's audience has, to some degree, christian standards of dress. I acknowledge I may be wrong.

[Joe-Lay]

On another note. I would like to apologize for my wording in that post I made yesterday. Looking back, I see I was overconfident and acting as an expert where I was not even an ameture. Therefore, I would like to apologize to all concerned for any wrongdoing on my part.

[Gurken Khan]

@Joe-Lay No worries, overall I feel this forum is quite civilized and well meaning.

"That person" seems to only have been here for a week, so it probably isn't much of a concern.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 10/07/2023 at 8:52 AM, vajei said:

I think that in some civilizations, women's appearance is not modest. I would be happy if their appearance in the game would be changed to a more modest appearance.
If you don't intend to do it with everyone, is it possible to at least have such an option?

At least it's not pornographic.

We lasted these women as best we could but we cannot pretend that antiquity had Judeo-Christian values from the Middle Ages or Islamic.

It's actually good to see the comparison of how things changed.

 

The game is build over realistic issues and the fact two the game is  done for educational reasons.

We are not trying to pervert anyone or be liberal with other people's clothing.

[ShadowOfHassen]

Interestingly enough, just with a little research I did apparently, the Indian women did wear the clothing depicted in the game. They thought the belly bottom was a door to the soul and so had it uncovered.