Differentiate Macedonia Civ

[borg-]

Hello everybody.

The topics of sparta and athenas had a great result, so I'm opening this topic so that everyone can put their ideas on how to differentiate macedonia from other civilizations.
As with the other threads, it's important to keep the ideas within the settings that the game allows today, it's also important to keep the focus on the general idea of 0 a.d, no fundamental changes please. In general, balancing should be secondary here, the important thing is the idea, the numbers can be modified later.

Thank you for now and I count on everyone's help.

Have a good day 

 

[Hidan]

Gordian Knot = more Health for heros, Siege Engineers = auto repair for siege units, Military Review = let get more EXP faster for Pikemen

[Player of 0AD]

I like them how they are (in the community mod of A26), they just need a better team bonus. For example a metal trickle of 1 per second.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

Faster pikemen.  From Wikipedia: 

"All of the armor and weaponry a phalangite would carry totaled about 40 pounds, which was close to 10 pounds less than the weight of Greek hoplite equipment.[1]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx

Edited June 26, 2023 by Philip the Swaggerless

[Vantha]

The Macedonians had far more advanced siege engines and used them way more than most other civilizations. I suggest to give the Macedonians one expensive late game research tech (additionally to the ones all civs have) to increase their siege engines damage.

Also, in reality the Helepolis (Macedonian siege tower) could fit hundreds maybe thousands of people inside. I suggest to increase production time, garrison limit and damage.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Whenever we think about Macedonia, Alexander is the first thing that comes to mind for good reason.  To capture the his strategy, I think that having all Macedonian military units being given a slow but constant regeneration in friendly and neutral territory could represent his ability to march an army across thousands of miles of enemy territory.  This regeneration would increase in rate for veteran units.  

Likewise, siege units being as iconic as they were with cases like Rhodes and Tyre could be either constructed by units or instead siege production buildings could be built anywhere.  This choice might, however, be too similar to Romans.  

A last aspect that could reflect how important cavalry was to Macedonian society could be something that gives them extra hitpoints but at a marginally higher cost or population space.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

31 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I think that having all Macedonian military units being given a slow but constant regeneration in friendly and neutral territory could represent his ability to march an army across thousands of miles of enemy territory.

Wait, what?    I think just make the pikemen (and siege?) faster.  

37 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Likewise, siege units being as iconic as they were with cases like Rhodes and Tyre could be either constructed by units or instead siege production buildings could be built anywhere.  This choice might, however, be too similar to Romans.  

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

Also, in reality the Helepolis (Macedonian siege tower) could fit hundreds maybe thousands of people inside. I suggest to increase production time, garrison limit and damage.

I think the siege would be a good place to differentiate them.  Currently, they have a hero that boosts siege damage/range, and a team bonus that makes siege get produced faster.  So they have buffs, but they don't have anything actually unique about the siege itself.

In previous alphas they were the only civ that could make an Arsenal.  All other civs had to produce siege from the fortress.  But everyone has an arsenal now.

[chrstgtr]

Mace used to play different because you would rush to p3 to get quick siege from siege factory. Now Mace plays the same as other civs because everyone gets siege factory. 

28 minutes ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

I think the siege would be a good place to differentiate them.  Currently, they have a hero that boosts siege damage/range, and a team bonus that makes siege get produced faster.  So they have buffs, but they don't have anything actually unique about the siege itself.

Make siege free? Nerf with siege factory limits or slower train times. 

Giving them free siege would introduce new strategies like rushing to p3 to free siege but that would make them very vulnerable to early pushes. 

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Allow the siege workshop to be built in p2. (Perhaps access to bolt shooters in p2??) 

this would behave somewhat similarly to the ele stable for Maury, and could make for some very interesting builds.

in addition it makes the swift early siege push more attractive which seems like a Macedonian hallmark.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

free siege I think is hard to balance. If we make the train time slower it will add significant time to the “fast siege” strategy. On the other hand more normal train times would result in ram attrition strategies where rams are killed as fast as they are made, which idles units and lets the mace player’s army win at no additional cost (pop space cost is non-negligible ofc so this would be most op for border conflict).

[chrstgtr]

3 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Allow the siege workshop to be built in p2. (Perhaps access to bolt shooters in p2??) 

this would behave somewhat similarly to the ele stable for Maury, and could make for some very interesting builds.

in addition it makes the swift early siege push more attractive which seems like a Macedonian hallmark.

I would be fine with that if bolts were available--otherwise it doesn't change their build at all except it is a worse version than Roman camps.

It might be hard to balance--imagine walking into a turtled mace base with 10 bolts at min 13. 

1 minute ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

free siege I think is hard to balance. If we make the train time slower it will add significant time to the “fast siege” strategy. On the other hand more normal train times would result in ram attrition strategies where rams are killed as fast as they are made, which idles units and lets the mace player’s army win at no additional cost (pop space cost is non-negligible ofc so this would be most op for border conflict).

It's not that hard to balance with either longer train times or limiting the number of siege factories. It would just require testing. I just want to create different build orders for the different civs. Right now it's all the civs play the same--boom, get siege around min 13, push with siege. This did not use to be the case for Mace, and I think we should revive that quick siege push for them

[Philip the Swaggerless]

Maybe like @Vanthasaid, the Macedonian siege tower could be enhanced. Longer build time, more cost, but it also shoots a bolt or 2.  We could limit the number that can be built at one time, like the juggernaut ships.

[vinme]

On 26/06/2023 at 7:39 PM, Player of 0AD said:

I like them how they are (in the community mod of A26), they just need a better team bonus. For example a metal trickle of 1 per second.

25% cheaper siege is a very good bonus i think, one of best in game. 
especially vs turtle, in effect, it makes enemy buildings 25% weaker, you can think of it like that.
a metal trickle of 1 per second is an utterly garbage bonus btw, completely useless effectively compared to other bonuses.
even pto food one, while giving reasonable eco boost early on, is one of weakest.

[vinme]

On 26/06/2023 at 8:26 PM, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Faster pikemen.  From Wikipedia: 

"All of the armor and weaponry a phalangite would carry totaled about 40 pounds, which was close to 10 pounds less than the weight of Greek hoplite equipment.[1]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx

sounds cool, perhaps they could get something like a technology that gives X% + movement speed for champion pikemen, but -Y armor.
lets say 10% move speed per 1 armor, so lets say -2 armor but +20% move speed.  tech costing only 200 metal 50 sec or something, can reverse back infinitely for same cost per change.
call it X reform or something, to explain the costs.
since in effect, infantry army movement speed is in most practical scenarios dependent on mele infantry movement, with meme infantry being the slowest, and pikemen being the slowest of them.
i would doubt, that this tech would be used in most circumstances, as harming brunt power for sake of mobility/versatility is rarely selected.
could be used esp in tgs, to cover distance 20% faster, lets say as pocket, to reach ally/enemy, and you could time the reversal to get advantage when you reach via starting tech right on dispatch. is 400 metal worth getting to ally 20% faster? idk. 

 

[vinme]

On 27/06/2023 at 3:46 AM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Allow the siege workshop to be built in p2. (Perhaps access to bolt shooters in p2??) 

this would behave somewhat similarly to the ele stable for Maury, and could make for some very interesting builds.

in addition it makes the swift early siege push more attractive which seems like a Macedonian hallmark.

p2 arsenal maybe can be good, maybe not but id say dont let it produce any siege at p2, this might be somewhat confusing for new players, but whatever.
yes, same mechanism as mayu p2 ele stables, as well as even maces own stables allowed at p1, while if you time it right moment you reach p2 you can start making mercs, instead of carthage/kush need to force up a building at a cost/delay on reward of p2 ing investment.
many other such examples like pers p2 archer cav, p1 stable, etc.
 

[vinme]

overall i wanan say that right now, mace is one of the strongest civs avaliable, with some versatility and options.
merc cav being a staple core as a tool, with mace cheaper wood, stone and metal in effect as their storehouse tech costs are instantly unlocked(great value).
the heros, one of best heros in game with 15% move, 10% dmg(60m), enemey soliders/structures -10% dmg(30m) AND enemy CC Capturepount/regen rate reduction by 50%.
much much better than conventional 20% dmg hero. id say as good as if not better than athen 3 armor hero.
AND the siege hero, also very good, its effects compounding with mace cheaper siege and often usable/better in context than the previously mentioned one, so this versatility is valuable. 
the speed hero can be used very well with inf AND cav, esp compoundign with merc cav in many ways like speed, cc target vulnerability, dmg, debuff.
I dont see why mace needs any boost necessarily, but its not THAT op that getting some would make it broken. 
maybe allow hero to come from a mace hero room of sorts, this hero room could also make special siege techs.
maybe tech for "efficient siege personele" thats 600 metal 60 sec but reduces siege pop cost by 1/3, so it wouldnt work on bolts, only on rams/siege towers.
second option of siege for "armored plating", costing 600 metal 60 sec causing +2 armor but 20% less speed for siege.

[Player of 0AD]

38 minutes ago, vinme said:

25% cheaper siege is a very good bonus i think, one of best in game. 
especially vs turtle, in effect, it makes enemy buildings 25% weaker, you can think of it like that.
a metal trickle of 1 per second is an utterly garbage bonus btw, completely useless effectively compared to other bonuses.
even pto food one, while giving reasonable eco boost early on, is one of weakest.

cheaper siege is close to useless, but the ptolemy bonus is on of the very best boni in the game, maybe the best.

One could also think about  a wood trickle for macedonians instead of metal.

[vinme]

at min 15 lets say, youll get 900 metal with trickle, with initial trickle having more value, albeit completely unusable for many civs till p2.
i have underestimated the trickle, my bad. you are right, pto bonus is one of the best ones in game.
and while with siege conventional use of lets say avg of 3-4 siege, becuase often they die/more get added, per 15 min length of game, and even much more long term, is like 600 res gain, mostly wood, wtih 25% cost save of siege+arsenal.
now if you focus on utilising this advantage specifically, esp as mace has reasons to, by spamming siege, you can get the value upto several thousand.
i think it if it gets boosted, it can get abused by this siege spam.  if it stays same, itll get disadvantaged vs other bonuses.
better remove it altogether, perhaps, but then theres no siege supremacy vector for mace.
so keep it, but as a civ bonus, not as a team bonus, sounds good. and 1 metal trickle is a good substitute, while earlier weaker in utility than pto one, long term should be much stronger, esp as metal becomes scarce in long gmaes.

 

[vinme]

scrolling through, rn id say 5 civs are actively worse in civ bonuses than pto, and few are equal.
id say gaul, rome, sele, carth are same.
and brit, han, kush, mace, mayu  are worse. unrelated but healers need to get cheaper by 25% at least rn, still too expensive, would make mayu/brit bonuses viable more so.

Edited June 27, 2023 by vinme

[borg-]

Thank you all for your contribution.

It seems unanimous that the Macedonian siege must have something special.
The safest way to do this is to give it some unique technologies. The challenge is to find technologies that, in addition to being unique, can provide some kind of gameplay change. Bolts p2 seems interesting too.
Regarding that, I think crossbow champion should be trained in the barracks.
Metal drip looks like a nice bonus civ, but I have to say it's pretty common.
Following the example of DE, I thought of a technology of choice along with unlocking champion in the barracks. You can choose the already current technology to unlock champions in the barracks, and follow the standard game or a professional army technology, with this technology, you can train elite level pikes and champions, ranged infantry would no longer be available. Along with that, some special technologies for pikes.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

While that conclusion might be valid on some levels, I think that it misses the profound degree to which cavalry dominated Macedonian armies.  Alexander throughout his campaigns relied on hammer and anvil tactics in which the pikes served as the obvious anvil while Alexander personally led the cavalry charges.  This was a decisive change in how cavalry were employed, with them being a key shock element.  

A few ways this could be reflected could be with a charging attack akin to the coustillier in Age of Empires 2.  An alternative option could be to give them a staggered increase in movement speed to better close the gap.  I'm open to other ideas, but Macedonian cavalry should be some of the best in the game.

17 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Wait, what?    I think just make the pikemen (and siege?) faster.  

The main idea behind that idea would be to reflect the fact that Aledander's army marched through land where they relied on foraging for resources.  Them regenerating hitpoints would reflect that and give the Macedonian player an edge in keeping his army in shape for the next fight.  Pikemen being faster would have precedent; they did execute some rather impressive manoeuvres at the Battle of Gaugamela and the Thracian Campaign.  The reason I was not so keen on that was to maintain their role as an anvil while the cavalry and hypaspists acted in a more mobile manner in the campaigns.

[borg-]

19 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

The main idea behind that idea would be to reflect the fact that Aledander's army marched through land where they relied on foraging for resources.  Them regenerating hitpoints would reflect that and give the Macedonian player an edge in keeping his army in shape for the next fight.  Pikemen being faster would have precedent; they did execute some rather impressive manoeuvres at the Battle of Gaugamela and the Thracian Campaign.  The reason I was not so keen on that was to maintain their role as an anvil while the cavalry and hypaspists acted in a more mobile manner in the campaigns.

It is currently not possible to regenerate health determined by own, neutral or enemy ground. Maybe you can build storehouses in neutral territory?

[Vantha]

1 hour ago, borg- said:

Regarding that, I think crossbow champion should be trained in the barracks.

I personally like to have the crossbow champions trained at the siege workshop. It's very unique. Their crossbow is just a smaller version of the bolt shooter, so it definitely makes sense. And it doesn't make a big difference when it comes to gameplay.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Vantha

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

2 hours ago, borg- said:

It is currently not possible to regenerate health determined by own, neutral or enemy ground. Maybe you can build storehouses in neutral territory?

Well I'm not married to the idea of it being tied to one specific territory type.  It could just be that the units regenerate.  

Building storehouses in neutral territory feels like a very different kind of bonus.  It doesn't seem like something that brings to mind any good basis historically, but I could see it presenting a Macedonian player with a pretty interesting possible playstyle, and that alone makes it seem worth considering.

[alre]

arsenals that train crossbows in p2 seems nice.

-25% cost for siege looks good to me, honestly I wouldn't want teams boni to be exaggerately impactful, allowing a whole team to build storehouses outside of territory would be way too much.

1 metal per seconds means 2 merc cav at minute 3, seems pretty strong to me.