Sparta and stone walls.

[Sun Wukong]

I had a question: where did the information come from that Sparta did not have a stone city wall? If you decide to make a wooden wall for them, then why is there no place for a garrison and turrets on it?

Edited May 17, 2023 by Sun Wukong

[Lion.Kanzen]

18 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

wooden wall

A palisade is not the same as a wooden wall.

 

A stockade is simply tree trunks that form a basic and inexpensive defense.

 

I don't know if you have built them in the game.

If you see well, it is not practical to climb on it, otherwise, you could be impaled.

[Sun Wukong]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

A palisade is not the same as a wooden wall.

 

A stockade is simply tree trunks that form a basic and inexpensive defense.

 

I don't know if you have built them in the game.

If you see well, it is not practical to climb on it, otherwise, you could be impaled.

However, as far as I know, Sparta had some stone walls. Or do you think that this polis was surrounded by a single palisade?

[Stan`]

7 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

However, as far as I know, Sparta had some stone walls. Or do you think that this polis was surrounded by a single palisade?

It did not. They prefered to fight directly.

https://www.quora.com/What-prompted-Sparta-to-finally-build-defensive-walls

They only did start building walls when their forces dwindled.

[borg-]

The fact is that we seek to differentiate some civilizations from others.

It was a civilization that didn't use walls, as far as I know of history, that doesn't mean it never did somewhere. Not having stone walls seems like a legitimate trait to me.

[Yekaterina]

The spartans don't have walls because they don't need to. They have no long range units except a boltshooter, so the walls really can't help them. 

Stone walls appear very very rarely in high level games. Most Spartan players tend to boom and push early, overwhelming the enemy with superior infantry. 

[Sun Wukong]

23 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

They have no long range units except a boltshooter, so the walls really can't help them. 

Walls could prevent enemy raiders. Anyway, maybe you should reskin spartan palisade into some unique texture?

[Sun Wukong]

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

They only did start building walls when their forces dwindled.

0 AD includes ages from -500 to "0", so why you don't use "dwindled spartan" stone walls? It could be not massive as usual, but it could be better obstruction for enemy raiders and rams.

[Sun Wukong]

35 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

They have no long range units except a boltshooter, so the walls really can't help them. 

But they can't attack through palisade... Why not give all nations approaching the palisade an opportunity to attack through the texture of their own palisade?

In the game Cossacks, however, the palisade was shot through, but it was impossible to shoot through the stone walls.

Why not use this combat mechanic: shooters and buildings and ships are not able to attack a target hidden behind a stone wall but are able to shoot with a canopy?

Edited May 17, 2023 by Sun Wukong

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Sun Wukong said:

In the game Cossacks, however, the palisade was shot through, but it was impossible to shoot through the stone walls

It's different graphics engine and different optimization.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Sun Wukong said:

Why not use this combat mechanic: shooters and buildings and ships are not able to attack a target hidden behind a stone wall but are able to shoot with a canopy?

That of hidden only exists for garrisoned units from there nothing is hidden.

 

You have to know how the game engine and simulation works.

[vinme]

I like that sparta has no city walls, city walls are severely underused and underutilized in tgs and in 1v1s.
But i dont like how sparta has not much to "compensate" for lack of stone walls.
its largely an attack civs, you have to go and go early especially in tgs, as it has little to no cavalary ie high mobility options, late game advantages, etc.
with skiritai being phase 2 advantage, and hero room instead of castle also, incentivizing earlier attack.
if they would get some advantage like "+5% attack in enemy teritory" that would be cool, as well as id give iber that armor bonus when defending in own teritory, if possible.

[vinme]

I would like if the spartan hero gave move speed, as i remember in one of alphas, it had very high mobility infantry army if you used only skiritai and skirmishers, perhaps sword infs had more move speed, or ranked up units did? i do not remember, it would be really cool if ranked up units got better move speed also, specifically infantry, i mean that would make sense, maybe horses dont gain "move speed" by being in more wars, but more trained human beings should, not that i really like bringing logic into 0ad.
 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Specifically the saying goes that Sparta's men were its walls, and historically, there was no threat to Sparta up until the war with Thebes following the Battle of Leuktra.  In theory the game is supposed to represent civilisations at their pinnacle, and thus, Sparta does not have any walls.  It is supposed to have better loyalty with its buildings and hardier women to compensate for that fact (at least going off of the original design document).

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Specifically the saying goes that Sparta's men were its walls, and historically, there was no threat to Sparta up until the war with Thebes following the Battle of Leuktra.  In theory the game is supposed to represent civilisations at their pinnacle, and thus, Sparta does not have any walls.  It is supposed to have better loyalty with its buildings and hardier women to compensate for that fact (at least going off of the original design document).

I'm sticking with this idea.

 

More loyalty from that would make the buildings harder to capture.

 

@real_tabasco_sauce

@borg- I mention you because you wanted to keep differentiating the Spartans.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I really want to experiment with p1 champions for spartans. In fact, I have a community mod branch made to implement @borg-'s sparta patch at the ready. I'd like to try this out in the community mod once that is ready for a27. With one or two iterations, we could make it very polished.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I really want to experiment with p1 champions for spartans. In fact, I have a community mod branch made to implement @borg-'s sparta patch at the ready. I'd like to try this out in the community mod once that is ready for a27. With one or two iterations, we could make it very polished.

I wish unit training limits could be iterated by techs. Currently it can only be affected by 1 tech only. No way to allow for further techs to affect the limit after the first one.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I wish unit training limits could be iterated by techs. Currently it can only be affected by 1 tech only. No way to allow for further techs to affect the limit after the first one.

hmm, i prefer that unit limits are used only for special units, like they work well for centurions imo.

I think we can use more creative means to balance their availability in p1. The economic opportunity cost is already huge as is, especially since they are trained from the syssition.

One thing that can be iterated by techs would be train time. One could use it to heavily penalize train time in the early game while restoring normal train time in p3.

What this does it it gives the opponent fair warning if they scout and notice the syssition, and it substantially increases the opportunity cost of getting p1 champs (increased time to get value from investment).

[chrstgtr]

15 hours ago, vinme said:

if they would get some advantage like "+5% attack in enemy teritory" that would be cool,

Way off topic, but I agree that this would be fun and is a little surprising something like this doesn’t already exist. 

[borg-]

I'm working 2 or 3 changes for each civilization. It's not much, just to give a direction and characteristic for each civilization.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

14 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

hmm, i prefer that unit limits are used only for special units, like they work well for centurions imo.

 

With DE, I hardcode more things. The ability to allow 5 Spartiates in Village, then 10 in Town, then unlimited at City+ would be nice. Instead, in DE, I cap them to 5 per Syssiton until Empire phase where the cap is now unlimited. By this time, you've researched Agoge (Spartiates -1 pop cost), Panktration (Champions +10% health), Tyrtaean Paeans (infantry +10% speed) and probably Iron Spearheads (spear units +20% attack) and Spartiates are now pure juggernautage. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, borg- said:

I'm working 2 or 3 changes for each civilization. It's not much, just to give a direction and characteristic for each civilization.

yeah it can be easy to find which civs need more 'spice' if you go to the civilization description part of the tech tree.

[vinme]

On 19/05/2023 at 1:27 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

I'm sticking with this idea.

 

More loyalty from that would make the buildings harder to capture.

 

@real_tabasco_sauce

@borg- I mention you because you wanted to keep differentiating the Spartans.

the 10% health and 10% capture points hellenic architecture that is a civ bonus of 3 civs mace, sparta and athen is good but not good enough, walls are waay too valuable to be compensated merely by this, perhaps if capture points got 25% bonus that could be somewhat helpful, keeping the +10% health.
but id like lets say -10% pop thing to stay with sparta, and revert skiritai cost to 110. with 40 food 40 wood 20 metal. traintime to 13 sec from 15.

[vinme]

On 19/05/2023 at 11:14 AM, chrstgtr said:

Way off topic, but I agree that this would be fun and is a little surprising something like this doesn’t already exist. 

imagine killing own cc as to win a battle.

[LetswaveaBook]

On 19/05/2023 at 5:24 PM, borg- said:

I'm working 2 or 3 changes for each civilization. It's not much, just to give a direction and characteristic for each civilization.

I was thinking about a generic change: Champions cost -25% resources, but take 2 population. That would turn champions into affordable elite fighters to break the current system where CS soldiers are dominant.

Sparta then could have a differentiation of -10% population, but Spartiates only require 1 population. They also get  other benefits for their champions, like a team bonus that also affects champion spear infantry.