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I think it's too hasty to say that Fanatics are OP and should be nerfed. I believe the adjustment made to them actually enriched the game and introduced a new strategy that forces all of us out of our comfort zones and encourages more creativity. As @chrstgtr mentioned earlier, I think what we’re seeing here is the typical panic from a player when a strategy they’ve perfected and repeated countless times is suddenly put at risk. I don’t feel the same way about champ cav, particularly Gauls and Seleucids, and I still believe it would be good to slightly adjust their stats or improve a unit that can serve as a counter to champ cavs. This doesn’t mean a nerf so strong that it renders a costly late-game unit useless — one for which a player clearly deserves to be rewarded — but in its current state it feels more like the endgame goal that everyone rushes to in order to decide the outcome of a match, and personally, I find that dynamic boring. A parallel reflection that comes to mind from this debate is that, in many multiplayer RTS games, a certain strategy often becomes the meta and seems unbeatable — and this leads other players to develop new strategies to counter it, which enriches the evolution of the game. There are many examples of this in 0 A.D., but I won’t go into detail to avoid making this too long. I believe the current dynamic in many multiplayer matches is to ‘play it safe’ — which basically means booming — and this stifles creativity and discourages players from trying new things out of fear of completely failing and being seen as weak players. What if u go play some multiplayer and see how it goes by yourself? No trolling intended here, but I find very difficult to achieve that players start sharing replays to make the point. Replays aren't even named, so it's a tedious job to identify them. And it's not very motivating to go through all that work just to show it to a singleplayer-focused player, since — at least with the current state of the game's AI — multiplayer and singleplayer feel like completely different games.

Buenos días: -Estamos casi terminando las facciones americanas, en breve comenzaremos con las africanas: Adena (EE.UU/Ohio) Anishinaabe (Canada) Swift Creek (EE.UU,Georgia) Pámpidos: (argentina) Guaraní (Paraguay) Disculpen las moelstias*

@guerringuerrin thanks for the suggestion, I might have overstepped a bit. However, I seem to have forgotten my MP password. Also, I don't think any of you guys play Alpha 9 right now It really feels like a different game. So clunky, so chaotic.

This replay isn't that great, but it might be better than nothing. Imo it shows rather that fanatics are expensive and hard to get than that they are op. Which they aren't. commands.txt

Every old version you play, you say the same thing. In 15 minutes, you'll announce that you're taking back everything you said before

With fanas, I would say we are looking at a very strong unit, but not really "broken OP". "OP" gets thrown around a lot, but you have to remember that gauls are still pretty much the best eco civ. If you moved them over to carth for example, the balance would be very different. Lastly, I would say that since they are a specialty of the gauls, I think they deserve to be pretty strong. I'd sooner nerf the champ cav play for gauls than fanas.

To underline, the the CS, which cost 2000 in res, defeated the fana, which cost 1540 in res. The fana also cost more food, the slowest resource to gather, than the CS, so the 1540 vs 2000 res comparison understates how CS were fairly close in price and the below example shows it even more because that example has fana as more expensive. Moreover, the fana player had to build multiple temples, which cost adds extra cost and time, while the CS army was built those 20 units several minutes before the fana player even went p2. Consider that the CS player could easily push the fana player before this or get upgrades with those extra res cost and it is hard to imagine how anyone thinks fana are OP unless you let the fana player spam them or try to fight them with cav

This might just be me, but some level of interpolation would make animations look miles better

War Elephants (only the Carthage has them here) saving the day from a 2-pronged attack. They ruined my economy and killed a bunch of fodder, oh well...

That's because we haven't 1vs1 today.

Well, fanatics do lose against sufficient infantry. But that doesnt mean its not a very strong tactic. For one, as reza mentioned, the rushing player will often head for the food economy first, as women cant defend themselves very well. And for that use case, having more power in fewer units is very strong, as a larger force gets noticed sooner and suffers more from blocking each other/pathing issues. Also, while it is definitely defendable when you pull together some troops, you have to consider two problems: 1. When the fanatic rusher has massed about ~20 fanatics, they can take on any soldiers you put on any extra metal/stone or a small woodline. And given their speed, you cant really get your main force, thats working somewhere else, to help in time. 2. There are major economic implications in fighting with all your cs. Of course, he invested a lot of resources to make the fanatics aswell, but if you are chasing 20 fanatics with 40 cs and fight them for like, 30s, you already lost 40•30•0.75=900 wood just by not using them to gather. That being said, fanatic rushes are not as easy to pull off as reza implies. They are quite costly and its not as easy to micro as cav (since they are still slower). Its a strategy that needs a lot of investment and skill and has potentially massive reward. Such strategies are very good for a video game and the fanatics shouldnt be touched at all imho.

@Dakara you can stop arguing with a guy who has never played a lobby tg lmao. and it's not fanas that are op, it's THE CIV. THE GODdarn CIV ITSELF IS OP. THEY GOT THE BEST CHAMP CAV, BEST ECO, BEST HERO, MOST ECONOMIC CHAMP, SLINGERS! ONLY WAY TO SAY THEY'RE WORSE IS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE BOLTS OR CATAS

We can argue about minor details for days, but until you show me some replays, I'm not going to reply to questions that have obvious answers.

you picked mercenary XD plus how you do with a civ of archer? i'm agree fanatic OP on situation, not all time . If you build wall, have a civ with good civ, didnt start spam cav in 4vs4, etc, etc etc etc plus we don't know why gauls has a extra tech of food. You know this kind of bonus don't make civilizations unique, it just makes them unbalanced.

You don't have enough melee. You also didn't snipe with those ranged units. Otherwise, it's an easy win for CS.

I don't know about others, but I really want to see those games where fanatics trash everything. Like truly.

Please keep this thread going, it keeps on giving. Comedy gold.

@Player of 0ADwhy don’t you accept the challenge? I’m not defending Reza but if you accept the challenge it might show win or lose the need to rebalance or not. With CS and women just gather food and wood aslan do is send only fanatics and it doesn’t matter if they die because there will always be waves coming back over. Im sure this strategy may not work/win on 1v1 all the time but its going to be annoying on team games. This will also show there is no need of CS if a faction has this type of warrior not needing extra resources like metal. Since most of the players commenting here disagree with Reza would it hurt to rebalance fanatics requiring metal? Nevertheless in this game all entities should require metal from women to elite units to buildings. Literally how can they work without metal?

Atualização do Projeto: Novidades e Progresso! Boa noite, pessoal! Depois de um tempo distante por motivos pessoais, estou de volta com grandes novidades para compartilhar! O projeto avançou bastante, e trago aqui os principais destaques: Novas Construções e Mecânicas: Torres de Vigia: Agora é possível posicionar unidades dentro delas! Quem ataca são as próprias unidades, não a torre — trazendo mais estratégia à defesa. Muralhas e Estruturas Inéditas: Implementei as primeiras muralhas e novas construções, expandindo as possibilidades de defesa e urbanização. Unidades e Tecnologias: Unidades Exclusivas: Crie novas unidades desbloqueadas conforme a evolução do seu povo. Balanceamento Completo: Revisei todos os status de unidades e construções para garantir uma jogabilidade equilibrada. Tecnologias Organizadas: Adicionei diversas tecnologias novas e estruturadas por fases. Progresso das ERAs: ERA 1 (Pedra Lascada): 100% concluída! Todas as tecnologias e construções da cultura Jomon estão prontas e funcionais. ERA 2 (Pedra Polida): 75% finalizada — faltam apenas algumas tecnologias e ajustes em construções. Desafios Atuais: Portões: Estou resolvendo os problemas nas animações de abertura/fechamento . Evolução de Unidades: Algumas tecnologias de promoção ainda causam travamentos ( em correção ). Logo e Divulgação: Trabalhando em um logo animado e na criação de um canal no YouTube/redes sociais para compartilhar o desenvolvimento. Confira as Imagens! Abaixo, algumas prévias do que foi feito. Adoraria ouvir feedback, dúvidas ou sugestões de vocês nos comentários! Muito obrigado pelo apoio, e em breve trarei mais atualizações! Observação: Se alguém tiver experiência em animação de otimização ou otimização de tecnologias , dicas aceitas!

Works with: Civilizations with strong and diverse champions such as Seleucids or Persians, but can work with any if done correctly. Requires: Maps with a lot of metal, choke points desirable. Start normally by focusing on women, but avoid cavalry unless there is a lot of hunt nearby. In that case, get a few, but no more. You'd want to have two houses and a Barracks as soon as possible. Get the first woodcutting upgrade after Barracks. Our goal for now is to reach 80 population before phasing up, so focus on Citizen Soldiers. Your female count should reflect your needs for food, so try to balance out food and wood production. If the map is small, send a couple of units to build palisade walls near the choke point. Avoid building walls over trees, build them around the trees, as trees don't block movement in this game. Otherwise, wait for the Town phase and send some CS to stone. By now, you should have already gotten the first farming upgrade and you're now in Town phase. Immediately send a couple of units to build stone walls and defense towers over an area where your next Civic Center or Military Colony should be. Your goal in the Town phase is to get hold of as much of metal as you can. Use other resources to train CS and send them to work. Build a Market, then a Temple in an area between your walls and second Civic Center. Also, build a Forge to get the first pierce armor upgrade (at least). After that, get 750 stone and metal in order to advance to the City phase, use the Market if necessary. By now, you should have around 130-140 workers, 100 of them CS. That's more than enough, since you won't be sending them to battle...at all. You will send only your champions, any siege weapons and a Hero. You are now in the City phase, and your first priority is to unlock champions or build several structures that train champions. Focus on the diverse unit composition, as most civilizations get only a couple champion units. If you are Sparta, supplement your Spartiates with Skiritai and either Hoplites or Helots, depending on the hero you went for. Your second priority is to build a Fortress next to that wall you've already fortified with towers before. Your third priority is to get siege, but only if your enemy has a Fortress of his own. Start your push when you feel confident, but don't include any CS. The strategy is to keep your economy booming while you force the enemy to idle his CS. If your army gets pushed back, regroup and heal any survivors. If you have extra food, train some healers and include them in your push. Never waste units by pushing Fortresses without siege, or by fighting in tight choke points. Micro your units during the battle. While you don't have a numerical advantage, this means you can have unconstrained control over how your units behave in a fight. They won't bump over each other or get lost in a crowd, or suffer AoE damage as much. They will maintain perfect formation, too. Upgrade your units, but focus on first and second armor levels and only one weapon upgrade. You won't have enough metal, unless you completely dominate the map. But, you won't even need them if that's already the case, right? If you do lose a lot of units, don't panic. You haven't lost any economy, and you still have your walled city to return to. Re-train and move out as soon as possible. Don't let your opponent breathe in the late game, or he will get champions of his own. As you gain more ground, send some CS to build Fortresses and Civic Centers to claim it. Wall them both off. You don't need towers at this point, the stone is better spent building walls. If you haven't got Murder Holes by now, get it. A Fortress is useless without this tech. Rinse and repeat until you win the game. Hopefully, you made some cool screenshots by now. If you get rushed before the first wall is complete, don't panic. Your enemy likely rushed you with cavalry, and his only saving grace is to kill your women. If the rush fails, he will be behind, so let that be your motivation to hold. Get the spearmen near your women on farms and he won't do much with spear cavalry. Flank his retreat points with ranged units if he rushed with javelin cavalry. Keep making infantry CS. PS: Rome gets special Siege walls that cost wood and can be built in the neutral areas. However, don't try building them there, as your enemy can still capture them if he builds his CC nearby. Spartans don't have strong walls. Use Spartiates as your walls, or train Agis hero to tank damage.

Here:

I think it becomes very evident when someone sell one Resource to buy another, incurring clear and significant losses, only to later use the second Resource (which was purchased very inefficiently) to buy back the first one or other assets with exorbitant yield rates. As can be seen in the Cube screenshot from the first message in this thread. And one could say the same kind of technique was used here: So the question is: why would someone make such inefficient trades, only to quickly reverse them with the exact same trade in the opposite direction? So if my math is correct, what Arup did was: First Trade 2800 Food for 1462 Wood Secondly Trade 2000 Wood for 3940 Food So u can do the maths 3940 - 2800 = 1140 FOOD 2000 - 1462 = 538 Wood And in the end is like he trade 538 Wood for 1140 Food. Which is like get 211 Food for every 100 Wood

Thanks @ffm2 for noticing this. So I dug into this bug and this is actually due to a typo in vanilla, while ModernGUI have the correct identifier "barterEfficiency" instead of the misspelled "barterEfficency" found in vanilla summary. Edit: Nobody will makes a PR for a typo I guess so I've just overwritten the faulty function so its fixed anyways for ModernGUI.

I don't think this is a productive conversation. But apart from that your team percentages are the individual percentages summed up. I can't reproduce that bug in vanilla.

This is not how u balance units. Are you a dev? Its simple, fanas run fast, they run. They are not going to attack cs like what u tested. They target women on field for example. Or a small group of men which are mining etc. That totally will destroy enemy eco. Then at a critical moment the fana player send all soldiors and kill his opponent. And both are still in p2. Other problem is that u cant counter fanas with cavs. And its very hard to micro with cavs vs fanas because they run fast. As chris himself in his first post said, a group of fanas easily can kill lot of cavs! Which show how broken they are. Moreover why only gaul should have a super op anti cav unit? Because its favorite civ of chris he bonused it? Fanas already required metal in last alphas. Why they dont require it now?