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fatherbushido

Special units and so on

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I'll try to be short and so not comprehensive.

I open a related topic: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25503-special-buildings-and-so-on/

At some point there were beautiful units introduced. They were possibly introduced as experience, for art experiment, for special purpose or whatever.

Among them some stay in the atlas,

some other were moved to some maps in special already placed building (the famous Thracian black cloaks https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/16768-alpha-xi-laconia-is-it-winnable/&tab=comments#comment-256009 leading sometimes to questions https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18586-unit-recruitment/&tab=comments#comment-290393)

and some were finally moved to the production queue list:

- black_cloak, thureophoros, thorakites for spart, athen and mace

- kardakes_hoplite, kardakes_skirmisher

(I won't speak of issues with templates organization and things like that but) it seems that the design was not finished nor consistent.

For example:

- some are recruitable in a non military building

- they are designed as champion mercenary (that's what I conclude) and sometimes trainable in phase 2, well that led to interesting things in games. Is that a good idea?

- Are those 3 units black_cloak, thureophoros, thorakites really consistent?

- The kardakes are mercenary champions and noted as such in the persian hall tooltip https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/pers_hall.xml but iirc there weren't mercenaries at all. So what?

[...]

---

Now let's talk!

 

 

 

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As for the mercenary champions, make them either ordinary champions or just mercenaries, and keep them as Atlas-only units or move them to a military embassy or hall, but not a civic structure.

Edited by Nescio
cleared
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"stoas units"

from left to right Thureophoros, Thorakites and Thacian "Black Cloak" armed with the Rhomphaia.

screenshot0408.thumb.png.49c7e9c3d050d0a82e75e7fdef23be19.png

 

Thureophoros

from left to right

"Mercenary champions" from stoas and basic, advanced, elite ptol mercenaries javelinist.screenshot0409.thumb.png.00ab6f8b09487c7de72bfdd1af77d8a2.png

 

Thacian "Black Cloak" rhomphaia men

from left to right

"Mercenary champions" from stoas and basic, advanced, elite seleucids mercenaries "swordmen"

screenshot0410.thumb.png.b68a9962b3fb35c8fb2c0d57ac7a1c15.png

 

 

Edited by fatherbushido

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On 3/26/2019 at 11:58 AM, fatherbushido said:

What did you do in 0abc?

(I want to discuss of those things in a generic way, not related to a specific mod or release).

In 0abc I simply disabled the stoa units but kept the normal ptol and sele b/a/e mercenaries. To me, they are comparable to e.g. the three `samnite_*` units. However, what works in my mod is not necessarily a good idea for the default distribution of 0 A.D., forks, or other mods.

Generally speaking, it's advisable to design a system (e.g. [infantry/cavalry] [weapon] [b/a/e/c/h]) and stick to it. Having several exceptions makes things more confusing for future additions (and mods).

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17 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

and then used the Stoa as a special starting structure for the Greek civs.  

Yeah the use as special starting structure sounds good (more or less what it was planned at some time).

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Thureophoros

I won't paste book so let's use wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyreophoroi

- Is it an improved peltast?

- Was it used by spart, mace, athen, sele, ptol?

- For which civ was it considered as a merc?

- How to include that compared to peltast?

- Is there a point to have that hellenic actor compared to the ptol ones?

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On 3/28/2019 at 8:00 PM, fatherbushido said:

special starting structure

This concept has a lot of potential.

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black_cloak

Those Thracian guys armed with Rhomphaia

Wikipedia knowledge as entry point :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

The weapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhomphaia

The clothing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_clothing (is black cloak the good name?)

The battle of Pydna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pydna

(Are Black cloaks mainly the clothes wear during 3rd Macedonian war between mace and rome?)

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Plutarch, Life of Aemilius Paullus, 18.5: "First the Thracians advanced, whose appearance, Nasica says, was most terrible, — men of lofty stature, clad in tunics which showed black beneath the white and gleaming armour of their thureos shields and greaves, and tossing high on their right shoulders rhomphaia heavy with iron."

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By the way, mercenaries are paid for their service, however this is oversimplification of the status of foreign troops. Auxiliaries/vassalized/allies are also important supply of foreign troops which are also sometimes considered as "mercenaries" because they got a financial contribution in exchange.


p.43 http://repositori.uji.es/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10234/172075/Trundle.pdf
image.png.51dc92c1d43748fefc8c5c8d957992c8.png

 

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50 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

By the way, mercenaries are paid for their service, however this is oversimplification of the status of foreign troops. Auxiliaries/vassalized/allies are also important supply of foreign troops which are also sometimes considered as "mercenaries" because they got a financial contribution in exchange.

 

That could be the basis for "mercenaries" for barbarian civs. IDK, maybe celts get some germanic units, Iberians could use roman/greek/carthaginian or celts, britons some caledonians, and so on...

Edited by av93
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12 hours ago, av93 said:

That could be the basis for "mercenaries" for barbarian civs

I agree on the idea but this could be more about "regional" units than mercenaries. It could be also special abilities for some factions, like the Romans and the Persians, getting new available auxiliaries from the capture of ennemy's fortress or civic center. For example Numidian auxiliary cav when they capture a Carthaginian fortress. I think the idea of wowgetoffyourcellphone of map mercenary camps to capture is great. It creates a sense of geopolitical context between players, making also the importance to capture strategic points on the map.

12 hours ago, av93 said:

maybe celts get some germanic units, Iberians could use roman/greek/carthaginian or celts, britons some caledonians

Yeah I used this idea to include regional units in the new rosters of the Celtic factions I suggested. Clearly Caledonian swordsman with back scabbard as the Batoros and Irish elite javelinist as the Caur. For the Gauls, I suggested to let the player unlock which regional champion he wants: Rhine region cavalry based on Belgian and Germanic items and inspired about the Tencteri and Usipetes fighting style. Aquitanian elite bodyguard inspired from the Sotiates account, with chain mail decorated with some decorated plates. Alpine axeman based on the finding from the Ticino region.

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The purpose of present-day Wildfire Games is to create, improve and educate about free software with and for the general public.

The principles of free software  empower any user to adapt and redistribute the software to their own best interest without hindrance, qualify the software as a pure public good, authored and purposed for the public interest. A pure public good is
  • non-exclusive, meaning "it is impossible to exclude any individuals from consuming the good", and
  • non-rivalrous, meaning "for any level of production, the cost of providing it to a marginal (additional) individual is zero."

The IRS defines a non-profit organization to be "organized and operated exclusively" for charitable purposes (see Organizational Test Under 501(c)(3)), serving public rather than private interests. Whenever Wildfire Games acts through SPI, uses funds that SPI holds, it must be exclusive to the furthering of charitable purposes.

So Wildfire Games can provide anyone who does follow Wildfire Games usage policies and exclusively serves public interest a subforum with the funds of SPI.

Other than not having funding for non-free software practices, I suspect Wildfire Games might distance themselves from any closed source practice unless having concurred with SPI. Anyone who requests a subforum may demonstrate good faith with that regard.

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21 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

@fatherbushido Do you guys want your own subforum ? or are you putting together yours

I don't request a subforum about special units, it's just a topic about that without any other purpose to speak of that in a generic way ;)

It seems the post above was posted in the wrong topic, am I wrong?

Edited by fatherbushido
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Wildfire Games uses the development platforms including the forums in order publish as much development history as possible, so as to minimize the cost to reuse and improve the code  for any member of the general public.

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the only correct answer for me : reforms and  mercenary camps. we can have other third "auxiliare camps" from RT 2.

 

Quote

Rome expected its people to fight for their city and country in times of need. The army was originally a citizen militia where nearly all members provided their own weapons and equipment. As Rome’s power increased, more troops were needed to defend it, so auxiliary soldiers were recruited from non-Romans to fill the rank and file. The enlistment of auxiliary troops began by the first de facto Emperor, Augustus, drew on provincial non-citizens, allies and conquered nations. Service was for 25 years, after which an auxiliary and his heirs were granted Roman citizenship, an important and superior legal status. The Roman army included many cultures and nationalities, often speaking their own languages and fighting in their own traditional styles. By the 2nd century AD half the army's total strength, and almost all its cavalry, consisted of auxiliaries.

but one per civic center.

https://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/building.php?l=en&v=rome2&f=rom_rome&b=rom_ROMAN_military_main_aux_3

Greek must have to

Quote

eastern Hellenistic states there was a limit to the number of Greek recruits available, and so local populations and mercenaries were used. After Alexander, leaders valued quantity over quality and some amassed huge armies of up to 70,000 men with only a small portion of Greek origin. Further west, Hellenistic states were caught up in conflicts that depleted their numbers, making mercenaries essential to continued warfare. In 227BC Cleomenes III of Sparta made 5000 free men citizens and allowed some slaves to buy their freedom so that he had more potential recruits. When Philip V of Macedon suffered huge losses he chose to reorganise his kingdom. During peacetime, he redistributed the population and was able to leave a large army to his son, Perseus.

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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Introduce coin resource and taxation to the game? Delenda Est sure did made a good purpose for mercenaries in the game and developed a good system for it. His mercenary system functions like what it should really be, a good economy means a good coffer, you could be rich if you are abundant with something, not just metal.

Carthage did had the necessities to fund mercenary armies, because they had a really good economy. That was the purpose of mercenaries right? So you do not have to force and drill the locals to muster a force, with the right amount of coin, an army could be yours in a snap. In most desperate times, you could drain your

Mercenary camps could be city-phase military structures. You had to be in city-phase to access mercenaries.

Mercenary Camp

Requirement: City Phase

  • To avoid rush tactics

Construction Cost: Coin (1000)

  • You pay for mercenaries to invite them to your territory

Unit Production: Mercenary / Coin (100) / Limit (No. of camp available)

  • Similar to Delenda Est to avoid spam
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