Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[Gurken Khan]

8 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

I do have a problem with those upgrades anyway. I just build more storehouses. If you have bigger capacity it just takes longer before I can have the 3 wood I need for the upgrade.

I always get the carrying upgrades: less walking time = more gathering time (I often don't get the last, but with batches of five units it's a sweet 100 res with each cycle). If I'm impatient and need a specific amount (less than capacity) I tell my unit(s) manually to unload (and get back to gathering).

[chrstgtr]

8 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

ok,

heres an idea: Let the carry capacity upgrades in the storehouse have a flat bonus to construction speed.

Why: Wicker baskets, wheelbarrow, and cart are fairly underused, since in many games it is preferable to just build additional drop sites when gathering becomes inefficient.

I think it would be great to add a small bonus to construction speed to each of these, something like 10%. It is perfectly realistic, and could add more options for civs that find themselves in need of many buildings.

just a thought, and it would be easy to do in the com mod.

The bold isn't right. They are frequently used by good players. The basket upgrades are a standard part of the basic boom build order and the baskets are an area that actually create build order differences between civs (delayed for ptol and sooner for mace). It's intuitively pretty obvious that investing 400 to not build ten storehouses that cost 100 and build time is a good investment at some point. 

I don't have a problem with a construction speed bonus being created. But I don't see why it should replace something that we already have and use. It should be an addition instead of a replacement. 

NB: isn't there already a construction speed bonus that is basically never used? It's for Carth, I think. 

Edited June 8 by chrstgtr

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Something like a construction speed effect needs to be large enough to be noticeable to the player and consequently worth investing in (assuming it's not a super cheap tech).

 

I'll look at the Carthage "Colonization" tech. Perhaps it should be applied to all buildings, not just a select few types.

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'll look at the Carthage "Colonization" tech. Perhaps it should be applied to all buildings, not just a select few types.

I feel it's worth it just for the houses and CCs.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Something like a construction speed effect needs to be large enough to be noticeable to the player and consequently worth investing in (assuming it's not a super cheap tech).

 

I'll look at the Carthage "Colonization" tech. Perhaps it should be applied to all buildings, not just a select few types.

Yeah that tech is also massively overprice iirc.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yeah fair points all around. if some tech boosts construction speed, better to let it be standalone.

any other recommendations for this next version?

I have the following:

• non-random arrows reverted, -25% building arrow damage (fire rate) to equalize melee unit TTK. This means ranged units survive a little better compared to a26 vanilla arrows, but otherwise its the same.
• Pack time for bolts, catas 10s -> 5s.
• Immortals cost is now equal for ranged and melee, switch time now reduced a little more to 4s.
• Stone wall garrison space is doubled, allowing for 16 to fit on large stone walls and 8 on medium walls.
• Loom cost decreased from 200 food, 40s to 150 food 20s.

the last two there are committed to svn already, so may as well test.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone does the naval rework require a lot of other a27 changes? if not, I could replicate it in community mod so we can get it balanced for a27.

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

yeah fair points all around. if some tech boosts construction speed, better to let it be standalone.

any other recommendations for this next version?

I have the following:

• non-random arrows reverted, -25% building arrow damage (fire rate) to equalize melee unit TTK. This means ranged units survive a little better compared to a26 vanilla arrows, but otherwise its the same.
• Pack time for bolts, catas 10s -> 5s.
• Immortals cost is now equal for ranged and melee, switch time now reduced a little more to 4s.
• Stone wall garrison space is doubled, allowing for 16 to fit on large stone walls and 8 on medium walls.
• Loom cost decreased from 200 food, 40s to 150 food 20s.

the last two there are committed to svn already, so may as well test.

All these changes make sense to me. But these aren't the most "exciting" changes. Should we try to get in some of the bigger changes to a27? Something like the Roman overhaul?

[Atrik]

6 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Pack time for bolts, catas 10s -> 5s.

1. In plenty of games, unit abilities with delays are prized as skill.
2. Increasing maneuverability of bolts make them more susceptible to be spammable as a main force alike siege towers.
3. The pack/unpack time differentiate catas and bolts by giving opportunities to opponents for responses (units are vulnerable to cavs because of this pack/unpack time).
4. Having to carefully plan position of catas/bolts is fun. I play blots ~80% of games they are available for my civ and I enjoy it because it's not failsafe.
5. To counter bolts, I often see my opponent running out of their range (at the cost of retreating and losing few soldiers) with a -50% pack/unpack time (remember to move bolts you'll get this delay twice) this evasive technique would be seriously nerfed/useless.

Kindly reconsider. Crossbow champs are already an option for players that don't want to bother with pack time, no need make the bolts too similar to them.

4 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Should we try to get in some of the bigger changes to a27? Something like the Roman overhaul?

Spartans and Athens seems to have some big changes too Would be indeed interesting to have them tested.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

18 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone does the naval rework require a lot of other a27 changes? if not, I could replicate it in community mod so we can get it balanced for a27.

Off the top of my head, I think the naval stuff is pretty standalone, so should be fine.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

14 hours ago, Atrik said:

• In plenty of games, unit abilities with delays are prized as skill.
• Increasing maneuverability of bolts make them more susceptible to be spammable as a main force alike siege towers.
• The pack/unpack time differentiate catas and bolts by giving opportunities to opponents for responses (units are vulnerable to cavs because of this pack/unpack time).
• Having to carefully plan position of catas/bolts is fun. I play blots ~80% of games they are available for my civ and I enjoy it because it's not failsafe.
• To counter bolts, I often see my opponent running out of their range (at the cost of retreating and losing few soldiers) with a -50% pack/unpack time (remember to move bolts you'll get this delay twice) this evasive technique would be seriously nerfed/useless.

Ok I thought about it and I decided not to reconsider.

• I can't think of an example, at least not in an RTS game.
• no, damage would do that, also remember that ranged units can currently kill catas and bolts easily.
• I would argue 5 seconds easily achieves that.
• Its not like you can't plan their position if they pack faster.
• So "countering bolts" is just "Oh I see a group of bolts packing up, I guess I will walk away and take no damage." yeah that's really fun and cool, well played.

Your last point really highlights their enjoyability (or lack thereof) to play at the moment.

@Atrik I don't think you realize how much 10 seconds is. Its literally almost 1 percent of an 18 minute game.

Edited June 8 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

Also, healing heroes will be strong again. Maybe a .1/s nerf to heal?

Maybe not needed with melee rebalance

Edited June 9 by chrstgtr

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

21 hours ago, Atrik said:

Kindly reconsider. Crossbow champs are already an option for players that don't want to bother with pack time, no need make the bolts too similar to them.

Thats not a valid comparison because crossbow units don't deal pass through damage.

to be honest -50% would still be pretty long lol

Edited June 9 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Atrik]

8 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I can't think of an example, at least not in an RTS game.

There are in every single rts excepted maybe in some aoe. Cast time in rts where you have some  'magic' involved, delay bombarding a area in moderns and futuristic themed rts...

 

8 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I would argue 5 seconds easily achieves that.

@Atrik I don't think you realize how much 10 seconds is. Its literally almost 1 percent of an 18 minute game.

Your last point really highlights their enjoyability (or lack thereof) to play at the moment.

You could also allow forts to be built 50% faster.  More enjoyable for the one building it, it's no fun to have to wait 1min for it to go up.

It's exactly the same reasons why bolts need to take time to set up. They are extremely strong, so they need to give room for counter-action.

 

I actually didn't expect my comment to have any effect on you pushing it. I'm already playing bolts often and will be one the most advantaged by this modification.
This will add (another) archive that I warned you about a change that would be bad and you ignoring it. Please note I mean no disrespect, this situation simply arise from the fact that you less experienced from playing less.

I will regret, however, the subsequent patch (community mod 0.26.10?) that would nerf the damage of bolts because of them being too strong when being used as replacement for ranged unit. I prefer their current balance that give them their role as support/artillery unit.

Edited June 9 by Atrik

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 07/06/2024 at 9:33 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone does the naval rework require a lot of other a27 changes? if not, I could replicate it in community mod so we can get it balanced for a27.

 

14 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Off the top of my head, I think the naval stuff is pretty standalone, so should be fine.

Don't forget you'll need some art as well. Actors, etc.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

On 07/06/2024 at 6:33 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone does the naval rework require a lot of other a27 changes? if not, I could replicate it in community mod so we can get it balanced for a27.

 

18 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Off the top of my head, I think the naval stuff is pretty standalone, so should be fine.

Don't forget you'll need some art as well. Actors, etc.

yes, I am quickly finding out how nice the git migration would be XD. I wrote a shell script to move the right files over.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone it worked except for "Ship Combat Demo.pmp and .xml

but this was the only case of spaces being used.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone the branch works in a26, I just need some missing portraits, and they are mixed across different revisions, could you send me just the portraits for the naval overhaul?

[guerringuerrin]

@real_tabasco_sauce please DM me when you have a release date for the new patch, so I can add all the modifications to the changelog. If possible, a week or more in advance =).

As we talk some time ago, I'm planning to move the Latest Changes button from the Settings to the Main Menu as it will be more noticeable for players. We can re-confirm this in case some of you disagree with that.

Thanks for the hard work

Note: there is a typo on the button which I've already noticed. (It should say "Latest", insted of "Lastest")

 

 

Edited June 10 by guerringuerrin

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

8 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone the branch works in a26, I just need some missing portraits, and they are mixed across different revisions, could you send me just the portraits for the naval overhaul?

You basically just have to copy all of the portraits from the folders.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset?sfp_email=&sfph_mail=&reponame=&old=27996%40ps%2Ftrunk%2Fbinaries%2Fdata%2Fmods%2Fpublic%2Fart%2Ftextures%2Fui%2Fsession%2Fportraits&new=27996%40ps%2Ftrunk%2Fbinaries%2Fdata%2Fmods%2Fpublic%2Fart%2Ftextures%2Fui%2Fsession%2Fportraits

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@guerringuerrin unless there are other things that should go in this version, I'd say its about a week or 2 out.

I thought about doing the roman/athens reworks in the community mod, but I thought the navy should go first, since its a completely new system (so probably needs plenty of balance work).

[real_tabasco_sauce]

maybe I'll yolo and add the badosu maps lol. 

[chrstgtr]

28 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

maybe I'll yolo and add the badosu maps lol. 

100%

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@guerringuerrin unless there are other things that should go in this version, I'd say its about a week or 2 out.

I thought about doing the roman/athens reworks in the community mod, but I thought the navy should go first, since its a completely new system (so probably needs plenty of balance work).

A small hope of mine is that someone will play the new naval stuff and be inspired to make ramming animations for the Ramming Ships. Currently, the Ramming Ships act like fire ships and just stand adjacent to their target dealing damage every X seconds.

[Stan`]

The last person who did ramming animation was @LordGood for ponies ascendant.