All Civilizations are my favorite.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

So, for Romans, I was thinking of making a patch to where you can promote the Elite Swordsman and the Elite Spearman to Centurion (4th) rank for a cost. Maybe limit it to a max of 10 or something.

I'll fix the Centurion's sheath position. You guys are quite right to note that while the Romans wore theirs on the right, the Centurion wore theirs on the left, possibly for additional distinction. 

[Fabius]

Sounds good and I greatly hope it gets approved  

[Grapjas]

33 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

So, for Romans, I was thinking of making a patch to where you can promote the Elite Swordsman and the Elite Spearman to Centurion (4th) rank for a cost. Maybe limit it to a max of 10 or something.

How about letting soldiers promote to champions (4th rank) the normal way if the civ has the same type for it in the roster?  (grapejuice^TM)

So swordsman to centurion, Spartan spearmen to spartiates etc. It makes sense for experienced soldiers to become champions. It wouldn't be that easy to achieve either, depending on the game ofc.

Gives more incentive to be savvy with your soldiers.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Grapjas

[chrstgtr]

 

9 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

How about letting soldiers promote to champions (4th rank) the normal way if the civ has the same type for it in the roster?  (grapejuice^TM)

So swordsman to centurion, Spartan spearmen to spartiates etc. It makes sense for experienced soldiers to become champions. It wouldn't be that easy to achieve either, depending on the game ofc.

This was discussed before. It would be virtually impossible to do in competitive games for most melee units. The exception would be games where skill isn't close (i.e., not competitive) or with skirati (units that get a 2 rank head start).

As a result, I would prefer @wowgetoffyourcellphone's suggestion in the abstract. I would be curious on how to do it so that cost makes sense and isn't just a work around for training champs to beginwith 

Edited April 8, 2022 by chrstgtr

[Grapjas]

20 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

This was discussed before. It would be virtually impossible to do in competitive games for most melee units. The exception would be games where skill isn't close (i.e., not competitive) or with skirati (units that get a 2 rank head start).

Well teamgames are a thing too. Just requires you to play differently if your goal is to have your units promote to champions. If competitive won't be able to achieve units getting to 4th rank (seriously doubt it though)- no loss no gain i guess.

Skiritai won't get to champions because spartans don't have champion swordsman type unit.

And there are also ranged units that would be able to promote to champions if that type of unit exists for the civ. Kushite archers to noble archers for example.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Grapjas

[Ultimate Aurelian]

 

21 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

It makes sense for experienced soldiers to become champions.

This depends on the civ.

It would be weird to turn the Machimoi into Greeks, or Roman Citizens into Extraordinari.

 

[Grapjas]

7 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Roman Citizens into Extraordinari

How so? Wasn't it normal to climb the military rank ladder? 

[Gurken Khan]

53 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

How about letting soldiers promote to champions (4th rank) the normal way if the civ has the same type for it in the roster?

btw Is there a mod that lets you see the leveling you achieved?

In vanilla stats I can see the lootin' I did, but not the levelin'.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

18 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

How so? Wasn't it normal to climb the military rank ladder? 

I think he means that Extraordinarii were by definition not Roman, but instead Italian/Latin allies.  

 

49 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

As a result, I would prefer @wowgetoffyourcellphone's suggestion in the abstract. I would be curious on how to do it so that cost makes sense and isn't just a work around for training champs to beginwith 

Thanks! Yeah, basically it would just be a small core of Centurions. Can have a max number (easily done in the code; already possible), so that they don't simply replace regular champions. Perhaps max 5 and they give a small (non-stacking, so you spread them out) bonus to nearby troops, since Centurions are officers. If no aura, then maybe max 10. It would just be neat to be able to actively promote some of your units to something stronger, rather than having them passively do it for you.

 

EDIT: in DE, I allow players to promote up to 2 Spartiates to Olympic Champions and Macedonian Hypaspists to Silver Shields (and Hetairoi to Somataphylakes). Helot Slaves can also be promoted to basic Hoplites after researching "Helot Emancipation."

2 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

btw Is there a mod that lets you see the leveling you achieved?

In vanilla stats I can see the lootin' I did, but not the levelin'.

That would be a neat stat for the end screens. Perhaps an XP column. Not sure which tab it would go under.

Edited April 8, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Ultimate Aurelian]

27 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

How so? Wasn't it normal to climb the military rank ladder? 

The Extraordinarii were recruited exclusively from Rome's Itallic allies.

So does not make sense as an upgrade for Roman Hastatii.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

The Extraordinarii were recruited exclusively from Rome's Itallic allies.

So does not make sense as an upgrade for Roman Hastatii.

Right, it's like the Machimoi pikemen, who are ethnically Egyptian, promoted to a Greek unit as you mentioned. 

[Grapjas]

26 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

The Extraordinarii were recruited exclusively from Rome's Itallic allies

I see. But I said promoted into centurions anyway though.

Obviously would need a critical eye from the historians team but I'm sure each civ could get a champion promotion out of some soldier types for that civ. 

Would be disappointing if only Romans got this feature imo, wether its the one from Grapejuice or the one from DE.

[chrstgtr]

7 hours ago, Grapjas said:

Well teamgames are a thing too. Just requires you to play differently if your goal is to have your units promote to champions. If competitive won't be able to achieve units getting to 4th rank (seriously doubt it though)- no loss no gain i guess.

Skiritai won't get to champions because spartans don't have champion swordsman type unit.

Competitive team games too. Basically if you keep melee units around for that long it’s because the other side isn’t doing a very good job of killing units. It’s rare to see level 3 units in the game now and when you do it’s probably because the game is already over. 
 

sparta also used to have champ swords. Would like more than just the champ spears there. 

7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Thanks! Yeah, basically it would just be a small core of Centurions. Can have a max number (easily done in the code; already possible), so that they don't simply replace regular champions. Perhaps max 5 and they give a small (non-stacking, so you spread them out) bonus to nearby troops, since Centurions are officers. If no aura, then maybe max 10. It would just be neat to be able to actively promote some of your units to something stronger, rather than having them passively do it for you.

 

EDIT: in DE, I allow players to promote up to 2 Spartiates to Olympic Champions and Macedonian Hypaspists to Silver Shields (and Hetairoi to Somataphylakes). Helot Slaves can also be promoted to basic Hoplites after researching "Helot Emancipation."

Yeah, I meant more cost etc. so that it isn’t just a backdoor to make champs

also strong agree re officers. I think also suggested that somewhere back in the forums, though, and no one seemed interest. I think of something like that being a cool semi-hero bonus. 

[Fabius]

21 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

The Extraordinarii were recruited exclusively from Rome's Itallic allies.

So does not make sense as an upgrade for Roman Hastatii.

oh, I did not know this, now I feel disappointed at realizing my champion isn't actually "Roman" lol

Centurions for the win  

[Fabius]

13 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Competitive team games too. Basically if you keep melee units around for that long it’s because the other side isn’t doing a very good job of killing units. It’s rare to see level 3 units in the game now and when you do it’s probably because the game is already over. 
 

sparta also used to have champ swords. Would like more than just the champ spears there. 

Yeah, I meant more cost etc. so that it isn’t just a backdoor to make champs

also strong agree re officers. I think also suggested that somewhere back in the forums, though, and no one seemed interest. I think of something like that being a cool semi-hero bonus. 

Spartan champion swords where in a class of their own since they traded 2 hack damage for 2 extra pierce and hack armour, which ultimately made them far more useful against ranged blocks.

[chrstgtr]

11 minutes ago, Fabius said:

Spartan champion swords where in a class of their own since they traded 2 hack damage for 2 extra pierce and hack armour, which ultimately made them far more useful against ranged blocks.

Fine. But stats are adjustable. My point is, it is something g that was lost and it would be nice to bring back 

[Fabius]

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

Fine. But stats are adjustable. My point is, it is something g that was lost and it would be nice to bring back 

I am not disputing that at all, I quite enjoyed using them back in the day. I was simply pointing out that spartan champion swords men where different to the others  

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Historically, the current Skiritai are pretty problematic*. If you like the "fast champ swordsman" dynamic, it should go to a different civ. Possibly Iberian infantry Devotio can take that role from the Skiritai. Thoughts?

 

*In reality, a typical Spartan army would probably have been:

40% Spartiates
50% Perioikoi
10% Skiritai

That players often use masses of Skiritai and barely ever train any Spartiates kind of bothers me from an historical/game design POV. Spartiates need to be made more attractive to train and/or Skiritai restricted in some way. I only ever envisioned them as a small core of shock/raiding/flanking troops, hence the name "Commando."

Edited April 10, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Historically, the current Skiritai are pretty problematic*. If you like the "fast champ swordsman" dynamic, it should go to a different civ. Possibly Iberian infantry Devotio can take that role from the Skiritai. Thoughts?

 

*In reality, a typical Spartan army would probably have been:

40% Spartiates
50% Perioikoi
10% Skiritai

That players often use masses of Skiritai and barely ever train any Spartiates kind of bothers me from an historical/game design POV. Spartiates need to be made more attractive to train and/or Skiritai restricted in some way. I only ever envisioned them as a small core of shock/raiding/flanking troops, hence the name "Commando."

Double attack ( secondary) with sword and spear.

[faction02]

In most game, skiritai are probably between not used (because Brasidas allows to make an army with high DPS, and thin meat shield) and around 40 units, very rarely more since they are not good for the economy. I think making skiritai less attractive will just make them not used at all since other strategies will just dominate any strategy featuring skiritai. A group of 10-15 units doing commandos mission seems to describe best the way naked fanatics are used in the game rather than the skiritais.  

 

There are two issues in my opinion with Sparta spear champions:

 - upgrading champions is  rarely a viable strategy. Melee champions are not meant to be produced in large quantities, they will die before being massed or they won't be affordable anymore (Shield bearers have the same issue);

 - spear infantry champions are not cost efficient. If spear champions are designed as better to counter cavalry and to  loose against sword infantry champions, then spear champions infantry has very little usage in the game. They are too slow to catch cavalries, too weak to fight swordsmen, too expensive to stand idle or be used as meatshield.

All spear infantry champions or mercenaries are barely used at all in the game. Assuming that everyone with a long stick should be specialized at killing horses is a bad idea if we also aimed at having a low amount of these horses on the battlefield.

[alre]

champion pikemen are outstanding meatshields and champion infantry in general is pretty good to have mixed to your army, the problem is that it costs too much. champion cavalry is also expensive, but it adds up stats-wise to CS cavalry, which is already a unit whith little economic value: while CS infantry is very iseful for the economy, more than a very few cavalrymen are a pure military investement, and thus champ infantry represent a limited value gain compared to CS inf, whereas champ cav is a strict improvement compared to CS cav, and are worth the extra cost.

the solution? reduce the price of unused infantry champs and reduce the stats of OP champ cav.

[Fabius]

13 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Historically, the current Skiritai are pretty problematic*. If you like the "fast champ swordsman" dynamic, it should go to a different civ. Possibly Iberian infantry Devotio can take that role from the Skiritai. Thoughts?

 

*In reality, a typical Spartan army would probably have been:

40% Spartiates
50% Perioikoi
10% Skiritai

That players often use masses of Skiritai and barely ever train any Spartiates kind of bothers me from an historical/game design POV. Spartiates need to be made more attractive to train and/or Skiritai restricted in some way. I only ever envisioned them as a small core of shock/raiding/flanking troops, hence the name "Commando."

Funny thing is that when i saw a video from Invicta I think it was, on the Skiritai, it was truly underwhelming compared to the game lol. 

[Fabius]

So I was thinking, why did Triarii never get put as the Roman champion infantry.

Then I began thinking about how one might implement the change from Extraordinarii to Triarii. and in the same breath double down on emphasizing the humble Roman legionary and his sword.

Firstly the regular spearman has to go, for two reasons, one that triari are highly valued veterans, two because this reliance on spearmen for every faction does not fit with Rome.

So starting with the clipping of the spearmen we then must consider that now there is the issue with hastati having a metal cost.

This is resolved by adding a second phase technology that removes the metal cost and makes it a food or wood extra.

Now one is free to replace the Extraordinarii with the Triarii. 

To further add emphasis on legionaries one might add a second technology again in second or third phase that buffs hastati further. 

And as discussed a little back there is the centurion as well  

[Fabius]

You could also give hastati a 1.5 modifier against other melee infantry.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

40 minutes ago, Fabius said:

You could also give hastati a 1.5 modifier against other melee infantry.

Nope. Why would they?