Dancing - Lowering heroes' health / adding headshot damage

[Jofursloft]

In a lot of tg matches I've played recently I noticed that some players get annoyed by my usage of heroes during the fights (not only mine of course). What I do is basically moving back and forth the hero, distracting a large amount of the enemy ranged units. These technique allows me to win a lot of fights. According to some of these players this usage of the hero is "dancing", and it should not be allowed in the match.

First of all, I want to underline the fact that "dancing" was a term that was originally related to a bug in the past alphas: moving the unit with rapid clicks could allow it not to take any damage from the enemy ranged units (so you could do it even with a unit with very low hps). So, I believe that this kind of skill should be considered micro and not a cheat, because 1) It is something you could do also with a fast unit with less health like a champ cav or a gaul fanatic 2) the unit still takes some damage from the ranged units.

All of that said, I believe it still represents a major problem in the game, for 3 reasons: 

- even if the unit takes some damage that damage is practically nothing compared to the excessive hp of a hero unit (so the unit can be healed easily);

- it is historically unrealistic (I cannot imagine a hero whose purpose was that of moving back and forth to distract the enemy);

- if every player did it, every fight would last hours;

In conclusion, I think there are 2 solutions to this problem (connected one with each other), and I hope you can help me find more or make these ones better

1) Lowering the health of the heroes in the game (in my opinion it is exaggerated):

- Infantry: 1000 hp -> 500 hp

- Cavarly: 1200 hp -> 600/700 hp

- Elephant: 1500 hp -> something around 1000, because the slowness of this unit makes it much more vulnerable to ranged units

2) Implementing a "headshot" damage in percentage for archers and slingers (maybe not instant kill but something like of a 70% of the enemy unit health). 

I would really like this "dancing 2.0" to become something realistic and usable by most of players. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Jofursloft

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I suggest having a <MaxAttackers> element in the <Health> component. That way if it's set to 20, only 20 of the enemy's archers will target him and the rest will target the next nearest unit. Could set buildings to something ridiculously high or turned off by default, while units would have a much lower number. (We could eyeball it by approximate unit size or health or both?)

[Dizaka]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I suggest having a <MaxAttackers> element in the <Health> component. That way if it's set to 20, only 20 of the enemy's archers will target him and the rest will target the next nearest unit. Could set buildings to something ridiculously high or turned off by default, while units would have a much lower number. (We could eyeball it by approximate unit size or health or both?)

Unintentional consequence could be that now you can split up ranged dmg to targets by doing max attackers as 2.  Effectively, that'd make Macedonian xbow best units IG :P.  Same range as regular bow but 40 pierce dmg.  Usually, they target mostly the same  units though, hah.

But darn, I thought dancing was solved/done with.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[Freagarach]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I suggest having a <MaxAttackers> element in the <Health> component.

This is actually one of the reasons the "Resistance" component lives. We already keep a list of who attacks a target, so it will be quite easy to specify the max and check for that in UnitAI.

But there is something else at play as well. The units will follow gladly anything whilst strolling past enemy lines. I've got a quick-and-dirty fix, which I should improve at some point (https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3853). This way the archers would be less distracted at the very least.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, Dizaka said:

Unintentional consequence could be that now you can split up ranged dmg to targets by doing max attackers as 2. 

Why would we intentionally set it so low? 

 

8 minutes ago, Freagarach said:

This is actually one of the reasons the "Resistance" component lives. We already keep a list of who attacks a target, so it will be quite easy to specify the max and check for that in UnitAI.

 

noice

[Dizaka]

9 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Why would we intentionally set it so low?

Valid point. 

Was thinking it is something that can be user-set.  Either by modifying some xml files or through other means.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

As most of you know I am not aware of what things are challenging to make features and what things are not. I notice that when I tell 20 archers to attack a unit, they first kill that unit (with a lot of overkill), but then pass on to a unit of their choosing. It seems that ranged units have a strong preference for melee units when they are choosing what to attack (maybe its just choosing the closer units). I have tried a few times but it seems to be impossible to keep archers focused at shooting skirmishers behind a wall of pikes. 

If this is happening as I have observed, then it usually leads to skirmishers killing the enemy melee faster than archers can do the same, which makes them better units in many battles. 

What if there was a way to make units prioritize the type of unit they were originally ordered to kill?. I feel that this would not only help with hero micro/dancing and archer/slinger frustrations, but it would also add a large amount of controllability to the units that would raise the skill ceiling of fights and make them more fun.

Perhaps it could be added as *hold hotkey*-> *right click*

Edited August 12, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Freagarach]

13 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What if there was a way to make units prioritize the type of unit they were originally ordered to kill?

It could be done, just implement such function in the GUI and send it to Attack.js, there save it and use it to give a high preference to matching templates in "GetPreference".

[chrstgtr]

Setting a max number of attackers takes out a lot of strategy/micro in the game since it takes away a lot of the incentive to position your armies when attacking.  

An alternative solution that would have less unintended consequences would be to just make heros' turn rates even slower than they are now since dancing abuse tends to only really occur with heros. Also please note that heros' turn rates did not change from a24 to a25. 

Nonetheless, I have not seen this happen much, so I am inclined to just leave things as they are until it becomes a pervasive problem like it once was. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, chrstgtr said:

a lot

Hardly "a lot". We're talking about preventing 50 archers from blasting a hero with 50 arrows (and missing). But I have no strong opinion on the subject and I'd rather not get into an argument for no gain.

[chrstgtr]

23 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Hardly "a lot". We're talking about preventing 50 archers from blasting a hero with 50 arrows (and missing). But I have no strong opinion on the subject and I'd rather not get into an argument for no gain.

Having 50 archers shoot and repeatedly miss is obviously a big loss of offensive power. That is why there is "a lot" of incentive to organize your troops better to ensure that 50 units aren't doing a duplicative job. 

With that said, my critique applies mostly to non-hero units. The main problem I see with applying a max number of attackers to heros (which again do most of the dancing) is that this will limit players' ability to snipe heros, which is often a big strategy in regicide games. In this balance, I could go either way. 

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, Freagarach said:

It could be done, just implement such function in the GUI and send it to Attack.js, there save it and use it to give a high preference to matching templates in "GetPreference".

Sounds like it could go OOS ?

[Jofursloft]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If this is happening as I have observed, then it usually leads to skirmishers killing the enemy melee faster than archers can do the same, which makes them better units in many battles. 

I don't think they are better units, you have just to use different strategies. In a open fight in a open field it's obvious that macedonian pikes + skirms beat pikes + archers. 

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What if there was a way to make units prioritize the type of unit they were originally ordered to kill?. I feel that this would not only help with hero micro/dancing and archer/slinger frustrations, but it would also add a large amount of controllability to the units that would raise the skill ceiling of fights and make them more fun.

My personal experience is that ranged units focus their attack on the nearest unit. I don't like the idea to make units prioritize the type of unit they are going to kill just because it would kill micro:

1) there would no be reason to have a shield of pikes to protect the ranged units (in particular for slow melee units such as macedonian or ptolemy pikes); 

2) rush would became so easy that even a medium player could easily destroy the eco of a pro player (just imagine ordering the cavarly to focus only on women when rushing a woodline: the only skill required would be being clever to avoid the enemy pikes);

7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I suggest having a <MaxAttackers> element in the <Health> component. That way if it's set to 20, only 20 of the enemy's archers will target him and the rest will target the next nearest unit. Could set buildings to something ridiculously high or turned off by default, while units would have a much lower number. (We could eyeball it by approximate unit size or health or both?)

I really like this idea but I think it should be implemented only for heroes, not every unit in the game (for the reasons expressed above by @chrstgtr).

39 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

With that said, my critique applies mostly to non-hero units. The main problem I see with applying a max number of attackers to heros (which again do most of the dancing) is that this will limit players' ability to snipe heros, which is often a big strategy in regicide games. In this balance, I could go either way. 

In regicide games moving back and forth the hero during the fight is extremely risky. Maybe in regicide games this "max number" could be turned off by default.  

[Dakara]

nothing to change 

[Freagarach]

3 hours ago, Stan&#x60; said:

Sounds like it could go OOS ?

By "send" I meant a sim-command.

[a 0ad player]

5 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What if there was a way to make units prioritize the type of unit they were originally ordered to kill?

Hi,

I also thought that range units should prioritize certain unit types. Then I thought that would take away some of the micro positioning.Then I thought what if enemy units closer than 25m/50m or 60% of range would be prioritized first (like in real life self protection comes first).  And then a prioritization of unit types would take place. Likewise for a26 I would like to see more geographic bonuses / more weight of positioning like Cossacks.

For dancing with heroes, a stun function could increase the risk. Something like when more than 40 range units attack a hero there is a 20% chance to get stunned (fall off horse 5sec / get overpowered 3sec) and take a lot of damage. I think units mico is a skill and should be able to give advantages, only heroes are overly resilient as tanks.

[LetswaveaBook]

All of these above options limit player option in some extent.

 

What I would suggest, is that if a unit misses a certain amount of shots, it will switch to a different target. That new target should preferably be something that is easier to hit (close, big or stationary).

[Jofursloft]

Just now, LetswaveaBook said:

What I would suggest, is that if a unit misses a certain amount of shots, it will switch to a different target. That new target should preferably be something that is easier to hit (close, big or stationary).

It's not specific about missing a target (maybe ranged units can hit the hero 30% while he is moving around). The problem is that the huge health of heroes allows them still to get a lot of hits from ranged units without dying, and they can be easily healed. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

3 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

What I would suggest, is that if a unit misses a certain amount of shots, it will switch to a different target. That new target should preferably be something that is easier to hit (close, big or stationary).

This is quite smart actually, however, we would probably want to disable it for hunting for food.

I would still like it if units did not have such a strong preference of what to attack in the first place, and at least have their next targets be close to their last target. Its one thing to be unable to kill the hero, but another to be unable to ignore the hero :I.

Edited August 12, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007