Walk vs. run

[rollieoo]

Hi, can someone tell me when a unit walks and when they run? 

I suppose normally they walk. Is there something I can do to make them run?

[Grapjas]

If you have selected a group of units and are spread out and give them a formation, they will run to make the formation. I think the 'flee' stance also makes units run when being attacked. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Grapjas

[alre]

priests and women run away when hit, I'm sure of it. So making formations is the other use case... aren't there any others?

[Grapjas]

afaik not. 

It would be interesting to make a stamina mod, and then make a toggle for run/walk. But otherwise a toggle would be useless.

[rollieoo]

If they are too far apart they remain where they are, while getting in formation. I tried this with some groups scattered over the map, you end up with one large squadron and several duos, all in close formation. Ha.

It would be nice to make them go (run) some place and maybe fall in formation when they arrive there. But that's a second. 

Or maybe that running depletes the health to some amount? It would then be a tradeoff if you need troops to go somewhere urgently.

 

[alre]

Honestly, I would disable running entirely.

[Grapjas]

35 minutes ago, rollieoo said:

If they are too far apart they remain where they are, while getting in formation. I tried this with some groups scattered over the map, you end up with one large squadron and several duos, all in close formation. Ha.

If you mean half way across the map, then yeah that won't work for formations. They need to be fairly close to eachother for a formation to properly group up. If a unit is far from the 'meeting point' for formation (but not to far to join the formation), they will run to it.  

24 minutes ago, alre said:

Honestly, I would disable running entirely.

I like it the way it is. Without running, the formations will feel very sluggish and a unit cannot catch up to a moving formation if it needs to join.

 

I dislike the flee stance how it is though. It's just a dance/kite gimmick. A unit in flee stance shouldn't be able to attack others or heal (priests) imo.

[alre]

I think formation could use a rework. If someone introduces me to the code, I'd like to try something. To be clear, running to join formation is not the problem, for AoE-style formations (like we have, more or less), I agree is kinda necessary, otherwise formations would feel very sluggish as you said.

[nani]

The run when in fear.

[Yekaterina]

In A25 units run in order to stay in formation. Sometimes they will sprint out of formation to chase down 1 enemy unit, then return to the formation once the enemy is dead. 

[LetswaveaBook]

I have also seen units running after a fleeing opponent, if I recall correctly

[Grapjas]

18 minutes ago, alre said:

If someone introduces me to the code

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/components/Formation.js
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/components/FormationAttack.js

 

[alre]

I think flee running is bad for the game. You have these unshakable men that fight to the last man without hesitation (they actually walk when retreating), but priests run away like babies, they are ridiculous. Also, the triggers are not very sophisticated, for instance when women are hit they run away, but not if you give the alarm, and if you call some of them away from the enemy, also they will be walking.

25 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I have also seen units running after a fleeing opponent, if I recall correctly

I wasn't sure so I tested it: they run when a target gets out of range, but they only do small sprints, so it's hard to notice. By the way this makes them slow down if you tell them how to chase the enemy, therefore making a dumb AI possibly convenient over a smarter direct order, same as when you have people fleeing.

All this running also makes chasing women with jav cavalry very uneffective: the javelin almost never hits.

24 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/components/Formation.js
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/components/FormationAttack.js

That's not enough for an introduction, to me. Sorry.

Edited June 20, 2021 by alre

[alre]

I made some more tests. You can make your men flee too, if you put them in passive stance, however, and this holds true for women and priests too, if you command them directly where to flee, they will stop running. So you can't have both your people run for their life, and behave smart.

[Player of 0AD]

Running of fleeing and chasing units should be replaced by walking, as its abused too much!

[Grapjas]

44 minutes ago, alre said:

That's not enough for an introduction, to me. Sorry.

Make a new thread, describe what you are trying to make, how much experience in javascript you have, what points you need help with etc.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

20 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Running of fleeing and chasing units should be replaced by walking, as its abused too much!

Agreed, nothing worse than catching your opponent in a bad position only to find that punishing him is very hard. To mitigate this annoyance I sugest taking a page out of AO3 and having units that are being attacked by melee troops having their normal run speed reduced to their walking speed.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

A key issue here is that at least according to the original vision running and walking could be toggled similarly to a Total War game, eating away at a stamina bar.  Introducing this feature along with charging is something planned at least to my knowledge, but in the meantime we only have a very awkward iteration.

[rollieoo]

Units run when fleeing, and when summoned to formation (within hailing distance). Fair enough. Fleeing as a tactic can be debatable but it is valid nonetheless I guess. Gamewise and historically. As for the passive stance, it looks to me like the unit only starts to flee when health touches the wounded level. For the rest it just stands there taking damage. 

Running as such is no function, that answers my question. Thanky'all. 

[alre]

they start fleeing at the first hit taken, so they will be quiet if targeted but missed.

We could do like Age of Mitology: people don't run, there is no running speed reported in the units stats, but for making formations you can have some soldier move faster than otherwise allowed. I wouldn't mind if that optionwas removed too actually (to be discussed in another thread maybe).

This would make the game simpler to understand and more robust (KISS), and it would solve all the issues presented.

[LetswaveaBook]

If we are talking about AoM, I would like to push forward the idea of(possibly once a minute) having a battle charge ability. This would mean you send your (infantry) units in battle using the run speed for a short sprint. They would aggressively attack the first unit they see, so it can't be used for fleeing. Units doing a battle charge get the enraged bloodlust status effect, significantly reducing their gathering ability for a while.

[Player of 0AD]

If you attack with a group a unit on passive, only one of the group will chase running (the one with the first hit). That's another annoyance currently.

[alre]

@LetswaveaBook your idea is interesting, but is very different from how the game is at now. In any case (still taking a page from AoM here) such temporary speeding up ability should be clearly stated as a caracteristic of the unit(s) affected, have clear and simple to understand activation rules, and be visible (in AoM I remember that the main campaign hero had a similar ability, and men affected would show a sort of blue fire around them).

A mechanic like the one you propose would have, depending on its precise rules, important gameplay consequences, and is not really comparable to running in the way it works now, which happens in a wholly disjoint set of circumstances. Do you agree that running, as it is now, should better be disabled? (with the possible exception of making formations).

Following this, your proposal could be tested with a mod. I myself still hope for a mod that makes units outside formation have randomly different speed.

Edited June 23, 2021 by alre

[ChronA]

I agree with @LetswaveaBook. I think giving units a battle sprint behavior would be a great way to buff up melee units to a more historically authentic effectiveness against ranged opponents, while also making the game more visually and mechanically distinctive from other offerings in its genre niche.

However I do think there is value in simplicity. I don't think it's necessary (or good game design in context of 0 AD's other systems) to make it player controlled. Combat in 0 AD (for better or worse) uses very large unit counts packed together very densely. That makes tracking the resource levels of individual units very difficult and removes a lot of the nuance from micromanagement. Given these conditions, in high level play I don't think there are many situations where you would not want a unit to use its sprint if the ability is available and an enemy target is in relatively close range. So why waste player micro on it?

Likewise I don't think it's necessary or desirable to introduce a visible stamina bar, for the same reasons. Most of the time it won't be possible to even read a stamina bar for individual units. But so long as the recharge time on the ability is relatively quick, players can safely assume the ability will always be available for at least a goodly portion of their force.

 

[LetswaveaBook]

2 hours ago, alre said:

Do you agree that running, as it is now, should better be disabled?

I think it is nice to see units running for their lives. It is gimmicky but it is not super harmful either. I think we can leave it as it is.

2 hours ago, alre said:

Following this, your proposal could be tested with a mod.

I was thinking on creating something similar to the patrol command. You order your troops to battle-charge to a particular area and they do it using their run speed. There are things like status effects, so giving them reduced gather capacity seems to be also a possible status effect. Maybe I eventually get to try to mod it, as just chatting gets us nowhere.

1 hour ago, ChronA said:

However I do think there is value in simplicity. I don't think it's necessary (or good game design in context of 0 AD's other systems) to make it player controlled. Combat in 0 AD (for better or worse) uses very large unit counts packed together very densely. That makes tracking the resource levels of individual units very difficult and removes a lot of the nuance from micromanagement. Given these conditions, in high level play I don't think there are many situations where you would not want a unit to use its sprint if the ability is available and an enemy target is in relatively close range.

I would like the idea that once you give the command, the units are now out of control and attack viciously. That is fairly historically accurate, since sometimes if a command was given it could not be recalled. Also it creates a risk in ordering a battle charge.

Furthermore it would be nice if it was a timed effect where it is unlikely to be able to use it twice. So you could decide to open with a battle charge and reach the opponent quickly. The second option would be to first engage in melee combat and once it starts, to use the charge to get the rear units into the action. The third option would be to see if you can win the battle without and use the charge to destroy the opponent when they try to retreat.

A battle charge could be a way to overrun the opponent, but on the same time it could mean that your own units run to their death. It would make timing of the charge decisive. Also ranged units could be decisive if they can seduce the opposing player to order an ill-chosen charge.

Anyway, the idea remains an idea until it is turned into a mod.