Interaction and early gameplay

[the-x]

What i miss most in 0 AD comparing to other strategy games is the interaction or the early interaction between players. Games are really rare, where you really interact with your opponent, in fast its only single playing on side and building up and attacking in the end if its suceeds its gg and if not its also gg, but for the enemy. Maybe we need a better rock paper scissor system? Maybe we need just some principles to accelerate the beginning?

[LetswaveaBook]

This situation seems to be natural state of the citizen concept. If you attack your opponent, the opponent will tend to have more units at his base than those in your attacking force.

Sometimes players make some cavalry very early and rush, hoping that you can find a group of women that are ill protected. However as the game progresses, there will be less unprotected women.

However there is something we could do to help rushing and encouraging people to make more women. There are 3 strategies:

-booming with women: Only food is needed for the units.

-cavalry rush-- Mainly food is needed for the units.

-turtling with citizen soldiers and sentry towers: requires as much wood as food for the units.

So if we would want to make turtling less common, we could increase food gathering rates and reduce wood gathering rates. So I would be in favor of such changes.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

2 hours ago, the-x said:

What i miss most in 0 AD comparing to other strategy games is the interaction or the early interaction between players. Games are really rare, where you really interact with your opponent, in fast its only single playing on side and building up and attacking in the end if its suceeds its gg and if not its also gg, but for the enemy. Maybe we need a better rock paper scissor system? Maybe we need just some principles to accelerate the beginning?

sorry bud but it aint gonna happen, booming with citizens and going for 50 women max is the norm. " Booming is turtling " a sentence that fits the game very well as you can develop your eco and not fear being molested by cav since cavs sucks ( weakens your eco because they can only hunt, are made of paper, don´t kill ranged troops effeciently and most maps are just hell for their pathing) and because past age 2 citizens and towers/forts are everywhere so no unprotected women.

Better go with AOM if you like the rock papper scissors counter.

Also i predict skirms will be in fashion for A25

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Also i predict skirms will be in fashion for A25

you say it like you can't test A25 SVN.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

Yeah i know eheheh, just messing with him.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I think one of the problems is that there is a total lack of reward for minor engagements.  In Age of Empires II, scout fights are common cases in which players can work to capitalise on their micro skills, and even a small difference in hitpoints can be critical up to early Feudal Age.  Cavalry instead are mainly rewarded by just gathering chickens, which was of course the primary thing that horsemen did historically.  

Much of this could be fixed by incorporating more rewards into scouting, which in turn could lead to early game engagements.  Resources that can be captured already exist in game.  The issue is that these are rare in most maps, and in fairness, it would be difficult to balance since depending on the amount of randomness, it could lead to a large snowball in the early game.

I would say that one thing I personally find disappointing is that rushes basically consist solely of cavalry.  I would personally like that to change; how it could be done is a separate matter.

[Player of 0AD]

- There is a lot of interaction possible in the early game. Right from the start you can run over the map to the opponent and interact with him

- if the beginning is too slow for you, maybe play with higher starting resources?

- booming is not turtling. There is a clear difference between a women-from-houses-boom and turtling with lots of towers, walls and fortresses... believe me

- cavalry can actually make the eco stronger

- cavarly can be very durable

- cavalry scouting is actually very important. That bad players tend to not doing it doesnt mean that its not a thing. On scout missions, the cavalry can also harass the opponent

- if you think that rushes consist only of cavalry, then you dont have enough experience in the game. Infantry rushes are clearly a thing

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

18 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

- if you think that rushes consist only of cavalry, then you dont have enough experience in the game. Infantry rushes are clearly a thing

Very true.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

There's just not much to do in general in the first 5-8 minutes except build ur eco, scout a little, and train units. At least in DE there are trading posts and mercenary camps to capture and map creeps to kill. Also you can rpg your hero a little bit.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

14 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

There's just not much to do in general in the first 5-8 minutes except build ur eco, scout a little, and train units. At least in DE there are trading posts and mercenary camps to capture and map creeps to kill. Also you can rpg your hero a little bit.

Well there is also the opportunity cost of attacking early. If your units have to move to the front line and fighting they aren't able to collect resources, the enemy's soldiers are.

Also if you decide to make melee cav and the map has barely any hunts then again the opportunity cost for you is doubled for the same reasons as before but are compounded to the fact that cav can only hunt and cost 100 food and 40 (?) wood. If they ca´t harass very early then they will neve pay for themselves and even so killing 4-5 women won't win you the game. Whereas infantry will always pay for themselves without risk by simply collecting resources.

[Gurken Khan]

33 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Whereas infantry will always pay for themselves without risk by simply collecting resources.

Yeah, though mercs will not anymore. At least they still can build.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

1 minute ago, Gurken Khan said:

Yeah, though mercs will not anymore. At least they still can build.

You are right , i omited mercenaries because i was considering early game.

[LetswaveaBook]

18 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

- booming is not turtling. There is a clear difference between a women-from-houses-boom and turtling with lots of towers, walls and fortresses... believe me

I agree that booming with women from houses does give a significant better eco, however the lead in eco isn´t overly decisive if my memory serves me well. It is not like booming gives a huge advantage over turtling.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 hour ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I agree that booming with women from houses does give a significant better eco, however the lead in eco isn´t overly decisive if my memory serves me well. It is not like booming gives a huge advantage over turtling.

Big agree. Often in a24, a person far behind in eco is not in big trouble, all they need to do is spam forts and archers and palisades and they will live a long time. I don't think that the infeasibility of rushing is due to CS, a23 and prior alphas had good rushing option in p1, and limited attack options in p2 as opposed to almost no attack options in p2 in a24.

I think a fun and great option could be to allow most civs to train one or two types of their merc in p1 (from barracks). This could mean you could choose a range of p1 aggression strategies, depending on how much metal you mine in p1, which is eco that is diverted from long term growth, unlike the citizen soldier only rush. This hinges on mercs being cost/power balanced. Ideally, if you don't plan on making a powerful p1 raiding force with mercs/CS, then you would need to make some defenses to avoid being overwhelmed by the combination of CS and mercs.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I agree that booming with women from houses does give a significant better eco

Is it actually worth it? When I tried it in an earlier version I had the feeling it's not worth the tec cost, the creation of women taking so long that I decided to stick with women from the CC(s).

[LetswaveaBook]

2 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

s it actually worth it? When I tried it in an earlier version I had the feeling it's not worth the tec cost, the creation of women taking so long that I decided to stick with women from the CC(s).

A CC needs 33 seconds or so to train 5 women. 5 houses need 30 seconds to train 5 women. So in that sense, the tech gives as much production as a CC if you have at least 5 houses.

[Gurken Khan]

@LetswaveaBook But I have to pay 250 food, 100 wood and 100 metal for it; so I'm still not convinced it's worth it.

[LetswaveaBook]

1 minute ago, Gurken Khan said:

But I have to pay 250 food, 100 wood and 100 metal for it; so I'm still not convinced it's worth it.

First of all, it is a very good way to dump excess food.

Secondly, women should in some sense be the preferred booming units, as they are cheaper.

Thirdly, building a barracks requires 150 seconds to build, which should be added to the cost. In P1, the metal cost can be disregarded as you start with 300 metal and there are few other options to use it anyway in p1(exceptions are Rome/Iberia). There is no reason to bank up that 100 metal till p2.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

28 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

First of all, it is a very good way to dump excess food.

Secondly, women should in some sense be the preferred booming units, as they are cheaper.

Thirdly, building a barracks requires 150 seconds to build, which should be added to the cost. In P1, the metal cost can be disregarded as you start with 300 metal and there are few other options to use it anyway in p1(exceptions are Rome/Iberia). There is no reason to bank up that 100 metal till p2.

In addition, you can still get the farming and lumber upgrades without going to mine more metal.

[Gurken Khan]

33 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

excess food

What is that?!?

Just kidding, though I rarely have excess food, maybe in late game when I was too lazy do redistribute my women.

And although that I can do something doesn't necessarily mean I should, I might give it another try sometime.

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

redistribute my women

that's dangerous. I've already run out of food and lost games because of that.

[Gurken Khan]

15 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

run out of food and lost games because of that.

But we were talking about excess food here. If I make 12 fields and get the farming upgrades (plus maybe fishing and keeping my horsies busy while I'm not attacking), I end up >10,000 food...

[flint1]

This food issue happened to me too once.

Edited November 17, 2022 by flint1

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, flint1 said:

This food issue happened to me too once

which one exactly?

[alre]

no better way to invest food than in livestock.