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How does this difference in a25 affect congestion of ships? I have frequently the problem that I cannot maneuver a selected ship, even if it is on the outer rim of the "ship swarm", because they cannot go backwards and cannot turn due to hitting with their fronts other ships when trying to turn. In my case, maybe the problem is myself, or we could argue that in real life, ships also need more space, of course. What do you think about this?

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22 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

autotrain disfunctional because the repetition is done before something is trained, not after

it is not persistent, at least in this first approach.

 

When the resource on which the unit depends is exhausted, they stop and stop training that unit.

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27 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

- autotrain disfunctional because the repetition is done before something is trained, not after

This is on purpose to not make it OP.

27 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

- elephant archers not nerfed? very OP

Valihrant seems unconcerned with them, feel free to voice your opinion at D3599

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2 hours ago, Stan` said:

Can you upload your interestinglog.html?

<!DOCTYPE html>
<meta charset="utf-8">
<title>Pyrogenesis Log</title>
<style>body { background: #eee; color: black; font-family: sans-serif; } p { background: white; margin: 3px 0 3px 0; } .error { color: red; } .warning { color: blue; }</style>
<h2>0 A.D. (0.0.24) Main log (warnings and errors only)</h2>
<p>Engine exited successfully on 2021-06-08 at 20:44:22 with 40985 message(s), 0 error(s) and 0 warning(s).</p>

 

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22 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

How could this be a problem? Anybody can use it. Hopefully the autociv mod will work again, so I can just use the autotrain of that instead

As discussed on the diff, the idea is that auto train is slightly worse than manually training, because it uses slightly more resources at any given time.

That being said, I do agree that the current diff is insufficient, since you can't easily do something custom and let the autoqueue resume its work.

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4 hours ago, wraitii said:

As discussed on the diff, the idea is that auto train is slightly worse than manually training, because it uses slightly more resources at any given time.

That being said, I do agree that the current diff is insufficient, since you can't easily do something custom and let the autoqueue resume its work.

I would say that autotraining is considerably worse than manually training. I could only see it being useful to resume wood gathering during/after a big attack when you are already at max pop and are losing units.

@YekaterinaI don't know how to tell which diffs are being added to the game, or how to navigate that page very well. There was one that reduced elephant pierce armor while increasing HP and there was another that extended the 3x counter to cavalry found in spears and pikes to also include elephants, also another was to give ranged units 3x counter versus eles. 

I personally don't like that last one since I would hate to have my ele get deleted by a single volley of archers while it gets stuck on a tree XD.

As for eles 1-banging units in game, I would say a spread attack of hack would be ideal, for the 120 ˚ angle forward of the ele. For that matter I would like to see splash return in some form for catas.

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50 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

There was one that reduced elephant pierce armor while increasing HP and there was another that extended the 3x counter to cavalry found in spears and pikes to also include elephants, also another was to give ranged units 3x counter versus eles. 

None of these were by me. Here is my profile if you want to see my activity: https://code.wildfiregames.com/p/Kate/

51 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I personally don't like that last one since I would hate to have my ele get deleted by a single volley of archers while it gets stuck on a tree XD.

As for eles 1-banging units in game, I would say a spread attack of hack would be ideal, for the 120 ˚ angle forward of the ele. For that matter I would like to see splash return in some form for catas.

If you learn to edit xml files and submit patches you might have these things fixed your way by A26! :) 

 

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13 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

How could this be a problem? Anybody can use it. Hopefully the autociv mod will work again, so I can just use the autotrain of that instead

Just because it is possible to automate something doesn't mean that is should be automated. For example, someone could write a script that does a perfect eco build. If that script was available to everyone then it wouldn't be a problem by your criteria. However, such a script would fundamentally change the game (for the worse) by eliminating all eco considerations. Players should benefit for doing the effort themselves. 

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5 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Just because it is possible to automate something doesn't mean that is should be automated. For example, someone could write a script that does a perfect eco build. If that script was available to everyone then it wouldn't be a problem by your criteria. However, such a script would fundamentally change the game (for the worse) by eliminating all eco considerations. Players should benefit for doing the effort themselves. 

You're correct with your statement but your conclusion does not fit to the autoquqeue for me.

When you automate the build order you loose strategic decisions, which takes away the fun.

When you automate training you loose the need to reclick the same button over and over again every few seconds, which increases the fun for me.

 

Citing from here: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/0AD_The_Vision#Snares

The ability to be able to click a button fast should not decide who wins, the strategic thought process behind it should.

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The "slightly worse than normal" is intended because for competitive RTS play, APM is usually viewed as a skill & it's desirable to have some things that are APM-dependent.

IMO, being able to click buttons faster should give you a small edge, but not enough of an edge that you can just walk over people that have better game sense. I think we want slightly less APM-intensiveness than Age 2, but 0 would mean making 0 A.D. a turn based strategy game.

---

That being said, the queue thing might have to go, because it's resulting in somewhat unexpected/buggy behaviour. We'll see what we do. 

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1 hour ago, maroder said:

You're correct with your statement but your conclusion does not fit to the autoquqeue for me.

When you automate the build order you loose strategic decisions, which takes away the fun.

When you automate training you loose the need to reclick the same button over and over again every few seconds, which increases the fun for me.

 

Citing from here: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/0AD_The_Vision#Snares

The ability to be able to click a button fast should not decide who wins, the strategic thought process behind it should.

Clicking 2 buttons (to select all barracks and the unit type) every ~10 seconds isn't fast. The game consists of essentially two elements: economy and military. And, the economy is composed of essentially two parts: gathering and spending resources. What you propose is to eliminate roughly 1/4 of the entire game. A large portion of that 1/4 will already be eliminated by allowing units to be auto-trained. But you want more. Equalizing automated gameplay (that could literally be done while you sleep) with the play of someone who puts forth much more effort (which is still just two clicks every ~10 seconds) should not be done. 

 

I really don't get the casual vs. MP divide on matters that involve skill like this. Casual players can still play their game as they always have. They just won't be as "good" as they could be, which they purport to not even care about. It's almost like proposals like this seek seek to eliminate any aspects of the game where skill does exist. Meanwhile, changes like this will diminish any "competitive" gameplay that does exist. If casual players don't care about doing micro for efficiency they can easily pick game play settings (such as high starting res) that eliminate the need to be efficient. 

Edited by chrstgtr
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19 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Clicking 2 buttons (to select all barracks and the unit type) every ~10 seconds isn't fast. The game consists of essentially two elements: economy and military. And, the economy is composed of essentially two parts: gathering and spending resources. What you propose is to eliminate roughly 1/4 of the entire game. A large portion of that 1/4 will already be eliminated by allowing units to be auto-trained. But you want more. Equalizing automated gameplay (that could literally be done while you sleep) with the play of someone who puts forth much more effort (which is still just two clicks every ~10 seconds) should not be done. 

You misunderstood what I meant (Maybe I didn't explain well enough what I meant). I didn't say I want it equalized, I said clicking the same button over and over again is repetitive and kind of boring, therefore an automation here is different than an automation of the build order.

I'm not against to have an advantage doing in manually  (batch training), I am against that this alone should decide if someone wins.

Edited by maroder
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