profanity

[sil-vous-plait]

20 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@sil-vous-plait

I understand how frustrating it is too see such profanity beyond any semblance of “dark humor”. But please understand that it is a challenging and controversial problem that is present in all sorts of games even at the highest level of development funding. 
I give Call of Duty as an example, I know the level of toxicity in Call of Duty multiplayer is unparalleled, and that it is maybe surprising to see this in a smaller game that otherwise has a very wholesome community. 
 

The online multiplayers of any game is the safe haven of trolls and white supremacists, It is tiresome to be around them. Just call them out when it makes sense and otherwise don’t let it ruin your fun in multiplayer.

fair enough, I guess I'm just surprised something like preventing obvious racial slurs in usernames would have been a little higher on the list than *checks notes* naturally realistic sounds of animals dying when they're hunted, or, modeling/skinning the historically accurate dress of the Gauls

TLDR: whatever, I don't care that much (it's not my game) and I tried. I'm happy to ignore it, always have (lol what other choice is there?), just a shame how it reflects on the game and community. at least this will serve as a record when (hopefully) the game gains some more popularity/users and it doesn't benefit from the luxury of inaction (re: this topic) and large indifference

at this point to be clear I'm focusing on usernames, as I understand why monitoring the lobby chat is another (slightly) more complex task. however seeing the response/rant of some user(s) above who are officially on the 0AD team makes it very clear why this isn't addressed—so again, whatever

[Gurken Khan]

18 hours ago, skeletonzombie said:

"I hate negros" -> "I (palmtree) negros"

"I palmtree negros" makes me think of "strange fruit"; not too happy with that.

Spoiler

The song "Strange Fruit" is about lynched Negroes hanging in the trees.

While I support the use of a blacklist for certain words, I still don't think taking care of toxic individuals is possible without human moderators. 

And since it only takes one or two individuals to ruin the experience for a lot of people, I really think it should be taken care of.

[Yekaterina]

If there is a list of all current users perhaps we can run an algorithm on the file and pick out all of the offending usernames and delete those. 

In the name-creating process we can also compare it to a list of offensive words and ban if necessary. 

However people can still bypass this by separating letters with numbers or underscores, but if they are going that far then most probably couldn't recognise their name (we all have different mother tongues), so they can do very little harm. 

About Nazi... some people are hardcore fans of them and just let them be. But they are already marginalising themselves as Nazi ideologies are clearly unacceptable in the 21st Century. 

[Stan`]

7 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

fair enough, I guess I'm just surprised something like preventing obvious racial slurs in usernames would have been a little higher on the list than *checks notes* naturally realistic sounds of animals dying when they're hunted, or, modeling/skinning the historically accurate dress of the Gauls

Do you ask a plumber to fix your electricity? Well assuming people that will fix the MP lobby are the same that work on art and sound is the same thing.  There is a huge variety of jobs in the game industry.

Also this game is open source and you're also free to host your own lobby where you can rule as you see fit.

from Discord, it's not complete but it gave @mysticjim an idea

Quote

There two big departments (when it comes to actually changing the game) more if you count team management, hosting (sys admins), community management, moderators etc
In art you get 2d artists (concept / and other 2D art), 3d artists, animators, map makers, and all the people that help cleaning up
Then you have the sound branch of art
Where there is foley and music

And then come the programmers You have gameplay programmers (eg adding resource regeneration) you got ai programmers, you got graphics programmers (eg water, reflections, shadows), you got tools programmers (mostly behind the scene stuff to help others) network programmers,
And then there are gui programmers, both UI and UX and the code to interpret that and random maps programmers which are also artists in a way, lowelevel programmers doing os optimizations and "engine ones"
Then there are programmers for the lobby, which is a mix between system administration, db management.

 

 

 

[Yekaterina]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

Also this game is open source and you're also free to host your own lobby where you can rule as you see fit.

How?

[sil-vous-plait]

On 15/5/2021 at 4:07 AM, Stan` said:

Do you ask a plumber to fix your electricity? Well assuming people that will fix the MP lobby are the same that work on art and sound is the same thing.  There is a huge variety of jobs in the game industry.

Also this game is open source and you're also free to host your own lobby where you can rule as you see fit.

from Discord, it's not complete but it gave @mysticjim an idea

 

 

 

This is such a failed metaphor: if there was an entity responsible for constructing a building explicitly for public/community use (consisting of planning, permission, actual builders, plumbers, electricity, etc.) and the principal entrance had a security or accessibility flaw, I would take it up with the entity, yes. I wouldn't go to the plumber, no, but the entity as a whole. If they only had plumbers on their team while supplying electricity to the building I would consider that a reflection on them.

Now imagine the entity saying "Well we don't have anyone who figures out security or accessible access, don't look at us! If you think it's a problem either come fix it yourself or build your own building!"

If anything—if I were to subscribe to your metaphor—you're just making the case + further solidifying the fact that there needs to be more moderators (electricians, as you would say) and/or some kind of better system put in place—as detailed extensively above.

There are two things happening: one is whether or not you think it's an issue that needs solving—which I have yet to see explicitly stated by anyone, if anything the opposite—and another is (and the transparency is appreciated) whether or not it is feasible for the team to do.

[sil-vous-plait]

...and that's the last time I'll spell out how to improve (at worst) and fix (at best) the online multiplayer experience of your game.

[nani]

https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/87268

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, nani said:

https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/87268

 

funny because Santa's Hat is Frygian.

[Stan`]

4 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

This is such a failed metaphor: if there was an entity responsible for constructing a building explicitly for public/community use (consisting of planning, permission, actual builders, plumbers, electricity, etc.) and the principal entrance had a security or accessibility flaw, I would take it up with the entity, yes. I wouldn't go to the plumber, no, but the entity as a whole. If they only had plumbers on their team while supplying electricity to the building I would consider that a reflection on them.

Now imagine the entity saying "Well we don't have anyone who figures out security or accessible access, don't look at us! If you think it's a problem either come fix it yourself or build your own building!"

If anything—if I were to subscribe to your metaphor—you're just making the case + further solidifying the fact that there needs to be more moderators (electricians, as you would say) and/or some kind of better system put in place—as detailed extensively above.

There are two things happening: one is whether or not you think it's an issue that needs solving—which I have yet to see explicitly stated by anyone, if anything the opposite—and another is (and the transparency is appreciated) whether or not it is feasible for the team to do.

That's my point the "entity" doesn't exist, WFG is not an entity, it's a group of Volunteers. So in this case you should take it up with @user1 who manages the lobby. Not to artists doing, well art.

I agree there needs to be more moderators, again, it's something @user1 should manage, he is the one that can grant such powers.

4 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

there needs

Yes there needs to be a lot of things around here, senior programmers, more artists, more people experienced with balancing and of course people more involved into making the lobby a saner space.

4 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

whether or not it is feasible for the team to do.

In the current state, if @user1 doesn't want to do it, nor anyone takes matters in their own hands and make a patch for it, it's unlikely for the team (or the entity, which is just a group of individuals) which is already stretched out to be able to do it.

[wraitii]

5 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

There are two things happening: one is whether or not you think it's an issue that needs solving—which I have yet to see explicitly stated by anyone, if anything the opposite—and another is (and the transparency is appreciated) whether or not it is feasible for the team to do.

Alright, I'm going to cut down your complaints by 50%: this is an issue that should be solved. There should not be racist slurs in the lobby. There should also not be cheaters, leavers, and a bunch of other things in the lobby.

Am I going to do anything about it? No.

[psypherium]

As others have explained, filter lists are not able to take context into account, leading to false positives. The solution is to have more active moderation, which means more volunteers are needed. These volunteers also need to prove that they are capable of performing their moderation duties appropriately without being too heavy-handed.

It is a difficult conundrum, because it might be that there is no clear way for volunteers to prove that they will not over-moderate the community.

The FOSS community sometimes tends to lean too heavily on "free-speech", without recognising the fact that responsible community moderation can increase the net-total of freedom of expression by limiting the ability of nefarious actors to use their speech to discourage minorities from having a voice.

The main solution that other games have implemented is a crowdsourced one, with easy and visible tools for reporting harmful content.

As far as I understand it, the only lobby moderator is user1. This person is not able to moderate in their sleep, so having at least one other moderator in the lobby would be a positive thing. This extra moderator should probably be someone who is not also a programmer, time should not be taken away from programming and given to moderation because the amount of programmers is limited. But the amount of people who are capable of responsible community moderation is much greater.

The problem now comes back to choosing which people are capable of performing these moderation duties without over-moderating.

11 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

.and that's the last time I'll spell out how to improve (at worst) and fix (at best) the online multiplayer experience of your game.

I would have said that sil-vous-plait was someone who was capable of performing this moderation, until this passive aggressive and somewhat arrogant post. "spell out" reads to me as patronising. I think that maybe this person was just frustrated, and I do not want to discourage them by pointing this out. I've felt the same frustration that they have, so I cannot really give blame to them for acting on this frustration.

The best guidelines that I know of in regards to enforcement are included in the Open Source Contributor Covenant https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_conduct/

Anyone who wants to put their name forward as a volunteer moderator should look to this covenant as a guide to how to perform moderation duties.

And here is the point where I will put my hand up and say that I am willing to volunteer for this position, I can not say that I will be able to give a large amount of time to this duty, and I would say that at least one more person should also be given this responsibility.

I also want to point out that I would not be offended if people decided that I am not suitable for this position.

I hope that everyone will have good days.

[Silier]

To be fair, there are other moderators in the lobby. Though not sure how active they are or what timezones they live in so it can happen that even if there will be more moderators, its not guaranteed 24 h moderation so the issue will likely not be solved anyway.

[psypherium]

30 minutes ago, Angen said:

To be fair, there are other moderators in the lobby. Though not sure how active they are or what timezones they live in so it can happen that even if there will be more moderators, its not guaranteed 24 h moderation so the issue will likely not be solved anyway.

"Solved" is probably impossible, this is true. But a reduction of harm is demonstrably a positive step forward. I was not aware that there were other lobby moderators aside user1, I thank you for the information. One thing that helps a lot was the integration of the lobby-to-discord bot implemented by Hannibal Barca, that is how I have been able to easily see some especially egregious activity in the lobby, through my 0ad Discord server, I subsequently reported the user, and action was taken.

I have generally stayed away from these kinds of controversial topics in the forum due to my social anxieties, but I have decided that it is important to spread the load among more people to reduce the negative effects of negativity and toxicity. Having more people responsible for absorbing and rectifying the negative activity will improve the mental health of everyone involved, as they will not have to be exposed to as much of it alone.

I'm trying not to be upset about this comment, but I can't help but read things into it that might not even be there. When I read "will likely never be solved" my mind extends that to "so it's useless to try to make it better". That's not what you are implying, right?

I thank you for your contribution, and apologise for picking it apart, I just want to more fully understand your perspective.

I feel like my response here is an ego-driven defense mechanism, but I decided to post it anyway in order to process my reaction, so that I can learn to more effectively and objectively communicate my perspective, and so that others can learn from it also.

Edited May 17, 2021 by psypherium

[Silier]

Ah, sorry.

Sure more moderators are welcome. I just wanted point out that one should not expect the issue to go away unless there will be active moderator for every part of the day.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, psypherium said:

volunteers are needed

It is always so. we always need any kind of help.

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, Angen said:

Ah, sorry.

Sure more moderators are welcome. I just wanted point out that one should not expect the issue to go away unless there will be active moderator for every part of the day.

You need to cover many time zones.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, psypherium said:

integration of the lobby-to-discord

Why to discord?

[Yekaterina]

@Stan` @user1 This TG has been going on for 3 days now. This player is no longer in the lobby but for some reason his game is still there. I tried to join but cannot connect. Some players want to ban him for profanity. Can we kick him or delete his game at least, please? It is very annoying to have an empty game in the lobby because it distracts players from joining genuine games. Thanks

[Lion.Kanzen]

29 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

@Stan` @user1 This TG has been going on for 3 days now. This player is no longer in the lobby but for some reason his game is still there. I tried to join but cannot connect. Some players want to ban him for profanity. Can we kick him or delete his game at least, please? It is very annoying to have an empty game in the lobby because it distracts players from joining genuine games. Thanks

it would be more fun to rename it.

Something more correct of course.

[Yekaterina]

8 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

it would be more fun to rename it.

Something more correct of course.

Rename it to what? Lol the game is stuck, we can't end it because somehow the host escaped the lobby. 

[Gurken Khan]

40 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

This TG has been going on for 3 days now. This player is no longer in the lobby but for some reason his game is still there.

I'm surprised the lobby doesn't kick the game (after a grace period) when the host is absent.

[Lion.Kanzen]

33 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Rename it to what? Lol the game is stuck, we can't end it because somehow the host escaped the lobby. 

I thought the problem was the name.

[Yekaterina]

On 17/05/2021 at 7:30 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

On 17/05/2021 at 3:17 PM, psypherium said:

integration of the lobby-to-discord

Why to discord?

Actually I think this is a good idea. You can monitor chats in the lobby through the Discord community server. 

Someone suggested to me that I should become a moderator today, and I think I can make some time each day, as I sit next to my PC for the majority of the time. I should be able to hear pings, if not, I can still see any discord chat or incoming emails. 

@Lion.Kanzen how do I become moderator?

[Yekaterina]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

I thought the problem was the name.

TG is ok but the player's name is quite poorly chosen. 

I must report that there are a lot of second accounts and smurfing going on these days. However I don't have solid evidence for most of these cases and they all deny themselves.