Feature: Hero Upgrades

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

So, Delenda Est is revamping heroes to be a lot more interesting. Along with selecting your preferred hero at the start of the match, heroes will start out on foot, with only economic auras, and then over the phases have more auras and bonuses unlocked. Furthermore, many heroes will be upgradeable to mounted versions in City Phase. 

What I need help for is determining which heroes get which bonuses when, and also what type of mounts they should receive (horse, chariot, elephant, etc.).

Any input, especially if sourced would be appreciated. Trying to push this thing as far as I can.

Edited June 24, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Carltonus]

Let's start with the field requirement: at least one stable (whether horse, camel, or elephant) or an upgrade within stable required for an upgradeable mount. Don't recall any hero riding a camel though, except for Lawrence of Arabia. Exceptions can be made for scenarios if modder wants both (or more) forms present at his own preference.

When turrets are implemented, a champion war elephant/chariot can take the place of the upgradeable mount, except in some cases (Boudicca, Hannibal, and Chandragupta have their personalized mounts and probably different modes of attack). In that case, a separate unit/actor can be labelled as "Boudicca's Chariot"/"Gilded Chariot", "Hannibal's War Elephant"/"Carthaginian Towered Elephant", "Chandragupta's War Elephant"/"Royal Maurya Elephant", or whatever name if the animal(s) have recorded names. Some can be trained (or put in scenario) more than once at modder's discretion.

For the Spartans, choosing Agis III as a starting hero should unlock (or automatically unlocks) the Spartan pikemen and walls upgrade, the former may no longer be champions. If so, either (1) the basic and advanced can be Perioikoi and elite Spartan--since historically some of the P's have opportunity to become full-fledged citizens, (2) pikemen are upgraded from normal Perioikoi and Spartan hoplites, or (3) both hoplite and pikemen variants of each can be recruited in the syssition. Don't forget that the Spartan walls may need to be re-textured so it is distinct from the Athenian and Macedonian counterparts. The fourth hero can be Lysander, and the bonuses can be (1, somewhat) related to the navy like Themistocles, and (2) adds crush damage boost against walls and maybe some structures--he tore down the Athenian Long Walls, no doubt about it. Brasidas could unlock helot slingers and bowmen (or can apply a bonus to all helots, even unarmed, if both can be added to Spartan roster).

Choosing Iphicrates unlocks a light champion skirmisher (other than a thyreophoros) who wields a round pelte, or a ekdromos hoplite who can throw dories (but the latter can still assume phalanx with normal hoplites). His bonus then can either (1) only apply to citizen, if any, and mercenary skirmishers in his lifetime, or (2) apply to all skirmishers (champions included) in a range. Fourth hero can be Archimedes, could be a healer. He can lower both the price and time of remaining building upgrades, as well as having upgrades of his own. Iphicratean Reforms will be available to Iphicrates and Archimedes (and fourth/any hero within or after lifetimes of him, either way a hidden upgrade), which allows hiring Athenian marines and the aforementioned light skirmisher/ekdromos.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Carltonus
More information added

[Ultimate Aurelian]

14 hours ago, Carltonus said:

. Fourth hero can be Archimedes, could be a healer.

Syracuse was not really linked to Athens (It was allied to Sparta and Corinth and was attacked by Athens during the Peloponessian war.)

IIRC i think Athenians have Xenophon as a fourth hero (Using Iphicrates as a placeholder)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

20 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Syracuse was not really linked to Athens (It was allied to Sparta and Corinth and was attacked by Athens during the Peloponessian war.)

IIRC i think Athenians have Xenophon as a fourth hero (Using Iphicrates as a placeholder)

Socrates maybe? Could swap between philosopher mode and hoplite mode.

[Carltonus]

On 6/24/2020 at 9:03 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

IIRC i think Athenians have Xenophon as a fourth hero (Using Iphicrates as a placeholder)

Thanks for reminding me that Xenophon is still a plausible fourth for the Athenians. Bonuses can be related to mercenaries and hoplites. Don't forget his mount.

For now, Archimedes can be the fourth Carthaginian hero, and the first "citizen hero". He can gather, farm, fish, repair etc. better than a usual citizen. Choosing him can give access the anti-ship mirror, and boosts the range and damage of nearby catapults/ballistae and oxybeles.

On 6/24/2020 at 9:24 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Socrates maybe? Could swap between philosopher mode and hoplite mode.

Don't think Socrates could be a potential hoplite hero. If you want, how about making him as two Atlas/Scenario-only units? One can be hoplite and other "merchant"/"healer". You can decide whether he can retire to the latter at any time.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Socrates was actually a decorated hoplite, given commendation twice for bravery on the battlefield. He was very proud of these accomplishments. 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

9 hours ago, Carltonus said:

Thanks for reminding me that Xenophon is still a plausible fourth for the Athenians. Bonuses can be related to mercenaries and hoplites. Don't forget his mount.

Xenophon was hardly patriotic and seems like a poor choice due to that.  

For Carthage, I think that a naval hero such as Hanno the Navigator would  be a brilliant option.

Regarding Socrates, while I don't want to undermine his importance as an intellectual figure (or military one), it would seem better to feature others such as Cimon or his father Miltiades.  Athens could easily represent the philosophic schools with an academy structure.

[happyconcepts]

Ahh ... A meta approach to balancing for DE heros? Alas it is a challenge I am somewhat familiar with since I am at a similar stage with the Aye Pirates mod.

Apologies for not knowing DE better, but with AP I started with four basic "advantage" paths that a hero can buff into ... all with aura ... then added a fifth (economic via trade): 

Attack Damage / Attack speed

Armor 

Move speed

Loyalty (resist capture)

TradeGain

Its fun to play so far... if you have other advantage mechanics in DE I say use them. i want more stealth for example.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Xenophon was hardly patriotic and seems like a poor choice due to that.  

For Carthage, I think that a naval hero such as Hanno the Navigator would  be a brilliant option.

Regarding Socrates, while I don't want to undermine his importance as an intellectual figure (or military one), it would seem better to feature others such as Cimon or his father Miltiades.  Athens could easily represent the philosophic schools with an academy structure.

For Carthage I was thinking Xanthippus of Sparta, their famous mercenary general from the First Punic War. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthippus_of_Carthage

Hanno would also be good. I could replace Maharbal with Hanno and add Xanthippus for a total of 4, or I could keep Maharbal and seecif I can't have 5.

 

Athens is difficult, because they have so many good ones to choose from. Aristides, Cimon, Miltiades, Alcibiades, Socrates, et al. I only mention Socrates because he would be a lot different than the others.

[Carltonus]

For the Athenians, can't you divide eras through an upgrade in the prytaneion or by initial choice? For the latter,  You can decide whether to take either the Greco-Persian or the Peloponnesian hero roster at the beginning of a match.

Or way better... choose from one of three/four ages: Greco-Persian, Pelopponesian, Hellenistic (, or Roman); then one of four heroes of the selected era. This opens up more heroes to choose from, notably Cassander.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Carltonus

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Carltonus said:

For the Athenians, can't you divide eras through an upgrade in the prytaneion or by initial choice? For the latter,  You can decide whether to take either the Greco-Persian or the Peloponnesian hero roster at the beginning of a match.

Or way better... choose from one of three/four ages: Greco-Persian, Pelopponesian, Hellenistic (, or Roman); then one of four heroes of the selected era. This opens up more heroes to choose from, notably Cassander.

I agree with this divided many fwction by dynasties or periods.

Like Romans for example.

One main hero like Scipio and you can train others two.

Or have Caesar then you unlock Pompey and Sulla or Marius.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 heroes works just fine (1080p resolution).

So, we can design 3-5 heroes for every civ.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

A few thoughts regarding your concepts: Ionian revolt is an annoyingly situational.  I would rather recommend something based around his colonial efforts in Thrace, making Civic Centres cheaper.  For Iphicrates, I would propose giving ranged infantry (particularly peltasts) better melee armour instead of movement speed; it's hard to exactly say what his reforms specifically did, but improving their performance in melee fights is a generally accepted theory.  I'd propose that Themistocles' Naval Architect technology be renamed 'Wooden Walls' in reference to the oracle.  Other than that, it would be nice if Themistocles had some bonus to wall-building.  He was instrumental in delaying the Spartans so that Athens could rebuild its walls and even was a leading mind behind the famous Long Walls.

[Sturm]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

5 heroes works just fine (1080p resolution).

So, we can design 3-5 heroes for every civ.

 

 

Despite the excellent 3D modeling work of the project contributors, in such cases it may be desirable to use illustrations instead of the 3D models plain images, what do you think? Furthermore, I bring back here the idea that the game (0 a.d. and its mods) could indicate, at the end of all these "describing texts", a link to the Wikipedia articles on the topic / biography. The game, therefore, would be a way/bridge for reading and eventual research. Finally, these head meshes, ahhhh, these head meshes ... Pericles doesn't deserve this!  

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Sturm
My bad English

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

A few thoughts regarding your concepts: Ionian revolt is an annoyingly situational.  I would rather recommend something based around his colonial efforts in Thrace, making Civic Centres cheaper.  For Iphicrates, I would propose giving ranged infantry (particularly peltasts) better melee armour instead of movement speed; it's hard to exactly say what his reforms specifically did, but improving their performance in melee fights is a generally accepted theory.  I'd propose that Themistocles' Naval Architect technology be renamed 'Wooden Walls' in reference to the oracle.  Other than that, it would be nice if Themistocles had some bonus to wall-building.  He was instrumental in delaying the Spartans so that Athens could rebuild its walls and even was a leading mind behind the famous Long Walls.

This is some good content. Thank you. I'll take it under advisement. 

 

2 hours ago, Sturm said:

Despite the excellent 3D modeling work of the project contributors, in such cases it may be desirable to use illustrations instead of the 3D models plain images, what do you think? Furthermore, I bring back here the idea that the game (0 a.d. and its mods) could indicate, at the end of all these "describing texts", a link to the Wikipedia articles on the topic / biography. The game, therefore, would be a way/bridge for reading and eventual research. Finally, these head meshes, ahhhh, these head meshes ... Pericles doesn't deserve this!  

About illustrations, it's difficult to get an artist to illustrate 40 hero portraits gratis. I really really suggest WFG commission an artist (then I myself would commission the same artist to complete portraits for the remaining DE heroes).

About links and whatnot to more info, the current iteration of the civ selection code just doesn't allow for that. Those big hero buttons are just PNGs.

[Carltonus]

Doesn't it look weird an Athenian hero wielding a Thracian pelte? As mentioned earlier, Iphicrates (and if possible, the thyreophoroi) should have a bit narrower but more rounder pelte like in this image:

Don't think Athenians have used the big oval thureos during his time though, correct me if I'm wrong. Edit: This might be a revival the old Ekdromos or a related light peltast unit if the shields are to be changed. Also, since the Athenian heroes are getting mounts, how about some mounted hoplites for scenarios (in case Xenophon can be used in such)? Any more Greco-Persian and Peloponnesian heroes can be confined to the editor as well.

Regarding history and related information, since they usually take up much bytes (especially regarding the heroes), why not put it in a Delenda Est manual downloaded separately and/or at GitHub? In game, the format can be like the vanilla: strengths/weaknesses/bonuses/boosts applied, followed by a summary of selected unit/upgrade/hero in a short paragraph or two, and gameplay traits. The rest of the research (full history, etc.) can be referred to the manual.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Carltonus
Re-iterating some points, more on Athenian champion skirmisher

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

Doesn't it look weird an Athenian hero wielding a Thracian pelte? As mentioned earlier, Iphicrates (and if possible, the thyreophoroi > "Iphicratean peltast"?) should have a bit narrower but more rounder pelte like in this image:

Don't think Athenians have used the big oval thureos during his time though, correct me if I'm wrong. Since the Athenian heroes are getting mounts, how about some mounted hoplites for scenarios (in case Xenophon can be used in such)? Any more Greco-Persian and Peloponnesian heroes can be confined there as well.

Yeah, some kind of large round pelte would be best for Iphicrates.

 

7 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

Regarding history and related information, since they usually take up much bytes (especially regarding the heroes), why not put it in a Delenda Est manual downloaded separately and/or at GitHub? In game, the format can be like the vanilla: strengths/weaknesses/bonuses/boosts applied, followed by a summary of selected unit/upgrade/hero in a short paragraph or two, and gameplay traits. The rest of the research (full history, etc.) can be referred to the manual.

At some point I will write a manual, either in PDF form and/or on Github. 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

41 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yeah, some kind of large round pelte would be best for Iphicrates.

Maybe change his armor as well; Unpaited leather shoulderpads look a bit simple for a hero.

They could be white with a player color pattern (Star?) instead.

IIRC i think there is already a ingame variant of that scale thorax but with white shoulders.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

21 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

A few thoughts regarding your concepts: Ionian revolt is an annoyingly situational.  I would rather recommend something based around his colonial efforts in Thrace, making Civic Centres cheaper.  For Iphicrates, I would propose giving ranged infantry (particularly peltasts) better melee armour instead of movement speed; it's hard to exactly say what his reforms specifically did, but improving their performance in melee fights is a generally accepted theory.  I'd propose that Themistocles' Naval Architect technology be renamed 'Wooden Walls' in reference to the oracle.  Other than that, it would be nice if Themistocles had some bonus to wall-building.  He was instrumental in delaying the Spartans so that Athens could rebuild its walls and even was a leading mind behind the famous Long Walls.

 

Miltiades

"Thracian Colonies"

• Civic Centers -50% build time while Miltiades lives.

 

Themistocles

"Piraeus Fortifications"

• Walls and Shipyards +20% health while Themistocles lives.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 6/29/2020 at 6:27 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 

Miltiades

"Thracian Colonies"

• Civic Centers -50% build time while Miltiades lives.

 

Themistocles

"Piraeus Fortifications"

• Walls and Shipyards +20% health while Themistocles lives.

 

 

Been looking into addditional heroes for the other two greek factions.

Thebes could have Pagondas, Attaginus or maybe even Cassander.

For Epirotes it's a bit harder; possible choices would be Antinous (Technically a Molossian since the unified kingdom   had been replaced by the Epirote league; last ruler of the region to stand against Rome.) or Aeacides.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 6/30/2020 at 5:33 PM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Been looking into addditional heroes for the other two greek factions.

Thebes could have Pagondas, Attaginus or maybe even Cassander.

For Epirotes it's a bit harder; possible choices would be Antinous (Technically a Molossian since the unified kingdom   had been replaced by the Epirote league; last ruler of the region to stand against Rome.) or Aeacides.

These are good. I will say that not all factions need more than 3 heroes, but more heroes would be good to offer more choice. Some factions, like the Zapotecs, we will have a hard time indeed just making the minimum 3. In that case, I may just say the minimum number of heroes is whatever we can find. lol

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Here's the current Spartan roster for y'all. Thoughts? 

 

I was wondering if anyone has any ideas to replace them having a "mount." Part of the new hero system is that once City Phase is reached that the heroes are 'Upgradeable' to something even more powerful. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 6/23/2020 at 9:29 PM, Carltonus said:

Don't forget that the Spartan walls may need to be re-textured so it is distinct from the Athenian and Macedonian counterparts.

Actually, the Spartan walls could retain the current "rustic" texturing while the Athenian and Macedonian walls receive a new UV map, looking more like the clean, square cut texture of the artillery towers (Thebes can use the "rustic" Spartan wall actors). 

 

[Stan`]

11 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I was wondering if anyone has any ideas to replace them having a "mount." Part of the new hero system is that once City Phase is reached that the heroes are 'Upgradeable' to something even more powerful. 

Well you could boost their stats, or put them on siege towers?

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Actually, the Spartan walls could retain the current "rustic" texturing while the Athenian and Macedonian walls receive a new UV map, looking more like the clean, square cut texture of the artillery towers (Thebes can use the "rustic" Spartan wall actors). 

 

What's this about?

[badosu]

I like the upgrade to mount idea! Would help balance the discrepancies between infantry and cavalry heroes in vanilla too

Edited July 3, 2020 by badosu