===[TASK]=== Celtic British Roster (Britons)

[wackyserious]

About the light armor, what would you suggest? Quilted/padded cloth? What about thick woven fabrics?

I am quite busy with school right now. This might take until the last weeks of March, after that is my semester vacation which would be 4 months.

[Genava55]

8 hours ago, wackyserious said:

About the light armor, what would you suggest? Quilted/padded cloth? What about thick woven fabrics?

Thick fabrics (woven or not woven) is the only one attested for sure. Pliny specify that both the Parthians and the Gauls use felted fabrics tremped in vinegar, which is able to resist a blade or fire (a bit exagerated but it is plausible). Moreover Polybius says during the battle of Telamon that the non-naked Gauls are protected against javelins by their tunic. 

There is a Parthian find: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/325987

Scythians use felted fabrics for various things:

https://flextiles.wordpress.com/2017/10/16/scythians-warriors-of-ancient-siberia-at-the-british-museum/

https://www.apollo-magazine.com/art-diary/scythians-warriors-of-ancient-siberia-british-museum/?map=active

Padded armor seems to be a thing for the Roman Imperial Era:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/70fz17/did_roman_legionnaires_wear_gambeson_under_their/

8 hours ago, wackyserious said:



I am quite busy with school right now. This might take until the last weeks of March, after that is my semester vacation which would be 4 months. 

No worries, I am busy as well. Good luck with your courses. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Genava55

[SDM]

On the topic of bronze age weapons in Britain, Neil Burridge is the leading researcher of bronze  age swords, and around the time of 0 A.D. Ewart Park swords and the Hallstatt C swords would be the most common type around. By 500 BCE, Britons would be using both iron and bronze swords, too.

Here is some information regarding the Hallstatt C (800-620(?) BCE) swords: https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3475

And here are some reproductions of the types of European bronze swords, including one Hallstatt C type and one Ewart Park sword: http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/British_and_European.htm

Here's an Iron blade from the Hallstatt culture that coexisted with the La Tene culture from a British museum catalogue: https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=829507&partId=1&searchText=sword&matcult=29381&page=2

The site above is also a great catalogue for finding other weapons in this time frame, such as spear and axe heads as well as arts.

 

Via trade, I think that both the bronze and iron Hallstatt & Ewart Park swords may have ended up in Britain during the time period. I don't think that they would have been the most common type of weapons found, but it's something to consider if you would like some variations in weaponry.

[Genava55]

20 hours ago, SDM said:

By 500 BCE, Britons would be using both iron and bronze swords, too. 

The Ewart Park and Llyn Fawr phases are a reminiscent bronze age period where the bronze weapons are becoming less and less popular. By 500 BC, there is very very little chance that bronze swords were still in use. Especially because the 6th and 5th century were a period of strong transition to the iron age with clear cultural influence from the continent. More precisely, it is the time where iron daggers were adopted and accepted by the natives:

http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1017/S0079497X0001608X

http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-prehistoric-society/article/swords-and-scabbards-of-the-british-early-iron-age/678467ECA9E12B38ACBF6D35F9BD835C

21 hours ago, SDM said:

Here's an Iron blade from the Hallstatt culture that coexisted with the La Tene culture from a British museum catalogue: https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=829507&partId=1&searchText=sword&matcult=29381&page=2 

This blade comes from the Marne and Champagne regions in France. It is one of the birthplace of the La Tène culture, where we see the transition between a local iron age culture influenced by Hallstatt to a fully expression of its own culture that will spread and become La Tène during the 5th century. The phases of this transition have their own denomination, Jogassien (530 - 475) and Marnien (475-400).

21 hours ago, SDM said:

around the time of 0 A.D

If 0 A.D. is focusing on the time period between 500 to 0, why including the Hallstatt culture that is disappearing during the beginning of this timespan? By 450 BC, the Hallstatt is ended.

21 hours ago, SDM said:

And here are some reproductions of the types of European bronze swords, including one Hallstatt C type and one Ewart Park sword: http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/British_and_European.htm 

As you pointed out, the Hallstatt C is ending around 600 BC. Hallstatt D is the next phase and during this, the daggers are becoming more popular than the longswords.

[Genava55]

What could be interesting for the Britons is the possibility to carry the "groupe IV" swords on the back, something nice to add for the Batoros unit:

[Genava55]

From "Chalk Figurines of the Parisi" by Ian M. Stead

[Genava55]

Interesting chapter giving a lot of informations:

Spoiler

[Genava55]

 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:05 PM, Genava55 said:

• • Champion skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion).  I propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent. 

Possible helmet or leather headress for Irish chieftains:

Edited May 3, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

8 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Thanks for the video. Interesting opinion.

Personally I see the Tanderagee Idol representing some sort of Late Roman, Anglo-Saxon or Viking helmet:

So probably not the better fit for the faction.

8 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

I would be careful with the Janus figure because it could be hair represented on the statue.

You can visualize the statue in 3D here: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/boa-island-janus-figure-ce8038c2d4594b6b9b14a520f0bc0b23

8 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

That's very interesting. Thank you very much. It could be a kind of crown or ceremonial hat indeed. Why not using it.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Personally I see the Tanderagee Idol representing some sort of Late Roman, Anglo-Saxon or Viking helmet:

The presence of possible horns threw me off a bit; but i agree there is no evidence of nasal on ancient Celtic helmets.

Quote

•  

That's very interesting. Thank you very much. It could be a kind of crown or ceremonial hat indeed. Why not using it.

Giving the unit a chance of spawning with no headgear would be appropriate in my opinion, this way you can have it in game but still portray it's rarity a bit.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Ultimate Aurelian]

@Genava55 Another headdress; Coincidentally from Cork, like the horns i previously posted  maybe a cultural quirk of that region ?

It had two horns (the second one broke off).

Quote

The Petrie Crown is a fine example of Celtic Iron Age metalworking which displays the curvilinear repeated patterning typical of the La Tene style. It is made of Bronze pieces which are either soldered or riveted together. It consists of a band, two discs and one horn.

The base is a bronze band which was bent into a circular shape that fits onto the head. Tiny perforations running the length suggest that leather or some sort of textile was sewn to the band. A Running pattern of disc- like shapes has been cut out of the band and is decorated with a flowing La Tene Pattern.

Two large discs are soldered onto this band and  decorated with La Tene Trumpet Curves, the centre of some of these curves end in a bird head design. The eye sockets of the birds head would once have contained enamel. The discs are not flat, but are concave in shape. The designs are lined or carved in – ie the background of each line is carved away and smoothed so the lines appear raised. In each disc there is a boss with a mount for a bead – in one boss the bead is missing and in the other a red enamel bead remains.

The conical horn was cut from sheet bronze, was formed by bending sheet bronze into a cone shape and joining the edges using rivets –  the edges were riveted to a strip of copper laid the length of the join inside the cone . Originally there was a second horn that was broken and lost. The horn is also decorated with cut away La Tene Trumpet curves and there is a mount where a bead would have been placed. This bead has since fallen out and become lost.

https://arthistoryleavingcert.com/pre-christian-ireland-2/iron-age-la-tene-in-ireland/

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/irish-crafts/petrie-crown.htm

Edited June 2, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

https://aberdoveylondoner.com/2018/09/20/the-tal-y-llyn-iron-age-hoard/

[Ultimate Aurelian]

7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

https://aberdoveylondoner.com/2018/09/20/the-tal-y-llyn-iron-age-hoard/

 

Quote

As well as the sites mentioned above, other La Tène metalwork finds in north Wales include the hanging bowl/helmet of Cerrigydrudian

 

 

Quote

Comprised of at least four fragments reconstructed as a flange. Bears engraved decoration comprising a scroll-like pattern of paired acanthus leaves linked to paired lotus leaves interspersed with palmettes within a cross-hatched background. One rivet is located on the inner edge of the flange.

Originally thought to be a hanging bowl these fragments are now interpreted as a ceremonial crown or helmet.

https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/bba3484d-6428-3bb9-8423-9342623ac868/Early-Iron-Age-bronze-helmet/?field0=string&value0=cerrigydrudion&field1=with_images&value1=on&index=1

Could be a champion helmet, i think it would fit the chariot unit (Would look out of place on the armored champion swordsman).

Edited May 5, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Stan`]

@borg- @Nescio do we have patches that differentiate the gaul from the briton roster on Phab?

[Nescio]

54 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@borg- @Nescio do we have patches that differentiate the gaul from the briton roster on Phab?

Not yet, as far as I know. Gauls ought to get an archer, but that requires art.

There is https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2841

[Stan`]

@Genava55 would a gaul archer require extra textures, or can we use the current armour and helmets for  base advanced and elite ? Else it's just XML work

[Nescio]

41 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@Genava55 would a gaul archer require extra textures, or can we use the current armour and helmets for  base advanced and elite ? Else it's just XML work

They probably should be unarmoured; Caesar describes them as running along and fighting in tandem with cavalry.

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

@Genava55 would a gaul archer require extra textures, or can we use the current armour and helmets for  base advanced and elite ? Else it's just XML work

32 minutes ago, Nescio said:

They probably should be unarmoured; Caesar describes them as running along and fighting in tandem with cavalry.

The current texture should be enough. As Nescio said, they are a mobile force during the Gallic Wars, so at the best they could have a helmet for the elite version, like the Coolus type.

 

 

 

[borg-]

@Stan` next week I’ll start making patches to differentiate civilizations from each other with a few small changes.

[wackyserious]

Thick cloth armor with animal skin shawls? @Genava55 opinion on this one?

[Genava55]

14 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Thick cloth armor with animal skin shawls?

This kind of short shawls are generally related to female clothing. I think the shorter clothing of this kind in use by men should be the cucullus but that's a bit different of your goal.

Fur is not a bad idea, it could have been in use but depicted only with texture it lacks a bit of volume.

Fur cape/toga/sagum seems to be a thing among iron age cultures but I am not sure about fur shawls.

By the way, if the unit doesn't carry a sword, there is no need to put a sword belt (the iron chain in this case). Just saying.

Edit: anyway I think this is only a pretext to distinguish the elite version, so why not an animal skin over a sagum like in this Vandal depiction?

See this link for wolf and dog symbolism: https://ralphhaussler.weebly.com/wolf-mythology-celtic.html

Edit2: other possibility

Edited August 18, 2020 by Genava55

[Genava55]

About body painting and tattoos among Britons:

References:

https://www.persee.fr/doc/ecelt_0373-1928_1997_num_33_1_2117

https://www.academia.edu/16201736/NON_ISATIS_SED_VITRUM_OR_THE_COLOUR_OF_LINDOW_MAN

 

[wackyserious]

Removed the fur, animal pelt would better be a prop, I suppose.

I placed a sword belt, in case this texture would be re-used in other units.

With tattooing, I guess other more advanced units could go topless to emphasize their tattoos.

Also planning to change the assigned textures for the Elite Gallic Cavalry Skirmisher.

More light armor and the chainmail would be assigned for the Sword Cavalry, similar to the old designs.

[Genava55]

A very very very kind person shared this today:

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1348978/1/337382_vol1.pdf

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1348978/2/337382_vol2.pdf

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1348978/3/337382_vol3.pdf

On the third volume are the illustrations, some juicy black and white schemas.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Genava55