Pseudo-Formations

[Phalanx]

Idk if work has already been done on this, but I had an idea on kinda how to make formations attack in formation.  Hopefully its also simple to implement too, but idk because I'm not a programmer, I'm studying to be a game designer/artist.  

When units are put in formation, why don't we just change the stance?  For more rigid formations like , battle lines, phalanx, and syntagma; units could be put in a "hold ground" stance where they attack anything in their combat range, but cannot move.  For more flexible formations like general lines and columns, they could be set on a defensive stance with a very short leash distance.  This could simulate formations for the time being so we can test how using formations on the maps actually might work.

If this is easy to do, could someone whip this up, and sent me a copy to try it?  If it kinda works, then possibly we can figure out how formations bonuses would work.

[Jofursloft]

9 hours ago, Phalanx said:

units could be put in a "hold ground" stance where they attack anything in their combat range, but cannot move

This would mean suicide a lot of infantry men against a mass of ranged units. Are you sure this should work?

Edited October 10, 2018 by Jofursloft

[Phalanx]

29 minutes ago, Jofursloft said:

This would mean suicide a lot of infantry men against a mass of ranged units. Are you sure this should work?

I mean, that's what a formation would do.  A phalanx of hoplites wouldn't just split up under arrow fire.  This would encourage players using their own ranged or cav to take down the ranged.

 

EDIT: And players don't HAVE to use formations.  I'm just trying to find ways for factions that need formations i.e. all the successors and greeks, to have formations that work.  Obviously, phalanxes and syntagmas are both vulnerable to arrow fire in their nature.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Phalanx

[Altrine]

I would accept to most of it as it would be good for melle infantry of ( Roman's, Chartiginians, Greeks (With Sparta))  who have one of the most experienced infantry at the least to have some resistance to ranged units ( like Slingers, skirmishers)  because they have that shield to protect and more near them to slaughter them ( I leave Persians,  Secludians and Ptolemies out of these because their infantry is not that much experienced )  Because some formations are too slow and weak due to present game contains that makes them suicide against ranged and need Cav to protect them. And some formations are to slow that the some 30 ranged units kill 50 meele soldiers in a closed combat formation Phalanx, Sytangma etc.  etc. Kill them for instance. I would like this type of upgrade to come. Even though if any of them couldn't come some of those resistance could come to elite rank meele soldiers in next upgrade. 

[Phalanx]

I think that once we solved the problem of units not attacking in formation (which has been an issue for a LOOOOOOOOOONG time) the plan was to add buffs for Phalanx and Syntagma.  I think it was like all units in Phalanx get a massive damage resistance buff, and units in Syntagma get a small damage resistance buff, but a massive damage buff.

2 hours ago, Altrine said:

 I leave Persians,  Secludians and Ptolemies out of these because their infantry is not that much experienced

1

I'm confused what you mean by this.  Are you referring to the slow xp gain rate of pikes?

Edited October 10, 2018 by Phalanx

[nani]

I'm afraid that having ideas without any math to back them up is not the way formations are going to be fixed. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by nani

[Phalanx]

32 minutes ago, nani said:

I'm afraid that having ideas without any math to back them up is not the way formations are going to be fixed. 

That's why I'm asking if a programmer could whip this up for me.  Its impossible to just know the numbers right off the bat, and that'll be part of the challenge in the extensive balancing rework this game will most likely need once it's out of alpha.  But balancing has seemed to be put on the backburner for now and justifiably so, as the devs just want the core gameplay elements to work.  Because without them certain factions are useless, I think formations would be a core gameplay element.

Besides, that's what we're here for!  We will test the various buff and debuff values to find a good balance point.  But for now, just getting units to stay in formation while attacking is the issue.

 

[Guest]

Username checks out.

On a more serious note, formations would be pretty cool to have. Less lag and just plain epic to watch. I guess it doesn’t even need major engine changes now. Just need a whole lot of UnitAI modifications.

[Stan`]

9 minutes ago, Phalanx said:

Besides, that's what we're here for!  We will test the various buff and debuff values to find a good balance point.  But for now, just getting units to stay in formation while attacking is the issue.

I do believe patches in that area were made.
@Angen (You still around mate ?) @Alexandermb and @temple and I (very quickly) worked on it.

[Phalanx]

5 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

I do believe patches in that area were made.

 

Is it in the SVN? Last I checked my phalanx kept breaking up

[Stan`]

If they were in SVN I would not have said lying around  I would have said they landed

[OptimusShepard]

Would be nice if there were possibility in a future version to combine freehand position (custom pathing) with formations. Maybe something like this

[Sundiata]

55 minutes ago, OptimusShepard said:

Would be nice if there were possibility in a future version to combine freehand position (custom pathing) with formations. Maybe something like this

Ooooh, yes please  

[Phalanx]

3 hours ago, OptimusShepard said:

Would be nice if there were possibility in a future version to combine freehand position (custom pathing) with formations. Maybe something like this

possibly if there is a way to save like, 2 formations a game or something.  Say there are two empty buttons or a whole new row of formation buttons that can be saved.  In theory, this could be simple.  All you would need to do is maybe not paint (or maybe paint, that'd be dope) but you could just manually position units in the shape you wanted, then have the game save that as a formation for that match.

One possible problem with that that I could think of is, say you have saved the formation above.  If units die, it probably won't be a problem, your crescent might just get smaller, but what if you set that formation on a group that is larger than the original formation?  It could be difficult for the game to extrapolate where you want the extra guys.

 

This would be an amazing feature though!  You could make a crescent and pull a hannibal at cannae or possibly a thicker hoplite phalanx from Marathon or Leuctra.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Phalanx

[Phalanx]

On a side note (since we are wishfully thinking about formations) It would be amazing if phalanxes and syntagmas behaved how they do irl in combat.  I'm talking specifically about the pushing.  (I'm lumping both formations into the label "Phalanx") Phalanx combat isn't truely about stabbing the enemy, its about pushing the enemy.  Hoplite on Hoplite combat was a pushing match between the two phalanxes, with Hoplites stabbing each other to try to lessen the pushing power of the other side.  

It would be cool if we could emulate this in 0ad.  Although I'm not expecting it because it would be hard to do, hard to balance, and I only know one game that's ever done it.  Total War Arena.

[Silier]

@stanislas69 kind of working on my diploma thesis now and in the future

to the topic

I tried some aporoaches of rewriting firmation ai and its members.

as they worked fine in clear plain areas they tent to not when rocks trees and stuff or edge of map comes to their way

because or some members are stucked and not catching up formation or i have to allow rerange after movemnt which is terrible in most cases.

and to eliminate loose formation advantages I had to put formation members very close to each other because anyway they would be overnumbered easily. and gave them a really big buffs. I think syntagma has 8x pierce damage like lol

and formation against formation needs a bit more time to rethink as they sometimes are just staring at each other or closing gap between them in a bad way

I think to work it needs pathfinder and movement rewrite what is in progress by someone else.

I tried to make like push move for formation but it failed on movemnt finished before even get to the point what drived me crazy

in this direction there is patch wip for unit pushing so once this is finished it would be easier to do I think.

to conclusion:
check @gaius's mods he is doing something with formations to act more like formations

formations are something what needs a lot of work to be done before they will work and there will be minimum or nothing to worry about only balance.

[Guest]

Github or patch worthy yet?

Edited October 11, 2018 by Guest

[Silier]

I dont think so yet. kind of ready for mod i started but that is another story

[Stan`]

@Angen Good luck with your thesis. Will you update your Phabricator patches if you get reviews ?

[Silier]

@stanislas69 thanks and yes

Edited October 12, 2018 by Angen