0abc mod

[Servo]

It’s really nice to be able to train the pikeman and swordsman champ for the Seleucid! Been waiting to have this. Thanks! Maybe the bolt shooters someday too! For SP no matter how OP the faction is doesn’t matter really. The more units and structures a faction can have the more pretty the game is!

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

21 hours ago, Nescio said:

On 11/10/2017 at 4:30 PM, Servo said:

though loading takes a little while.

 

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

20 hours ago, leper said:

Might be caused by how the AI currently handles template loading. In A22 it loads all of them at the start, so that does slow things down. It still does that in SVN, but some work to enable us to move away from that behaviour has been done. However it seems the contributor working on that has been busy.

Hopefully that'll be changed eventually. 0abc's simulation folder, though only 2 MB in size, already contains over three thousand files. When starting a new random map, getting to 99% takes seconds, from there to actual start of the session takes several minutes.

 

I assumed that this is because the core game's files in A22 are compressed, so load quicker, while the mod's files are uncompressed. Is this wrong?

[leper]

They aren't compressed, they are however packed into one file. That helps with actually loading from disk and might very well help with loading times.

[Servo]

It took 18 seconds from my timer btw and says 100% but stop for a while after tha, then waited maybe a minute or 3 if I remember before the game loads. That was his update before the latest which I haven’t tried yet. The saved games took little time though even with max 300 pop.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Servo

[Nescio]

7 hours ago, Servo said:

It took 18 seconds from my timer btw and says 100% but stop for a while after tha, then waited maybe a minute or 3 if I remember before the game loads. That was his update before the latest which I haven’t tried yet. The saved games took little time though even with max 300 pop.

 

Excessive times are related to setting up the AI. Generating a giant eight player random map with no population limit takes merely seconds if all AIs are set to “none”. If, however, AIs (e.g. Petra) are selected, the time increases by several minutes. Hopefully this will be improved in A23.

 

Anyway, 0abc updated again:

• farm fields have to be at at least 50 m from civil centres (distances are calculated from the centre of one object to the centre of another)
• number of towers is limited to a maximum of ten plus five per centre
• village phase technologies typically cost 40 seconds, town phase technologies 50, city phase technologies 60
• fishing boats can gather food.meat (useful if amphibious animals (e.g. hippopotamus) are introduced)
  • females and infantry can gather food.fish (useful if there is fish in shallow water)
  • workers benefit from fishing net technology
• Mauryans have -10% stone gather rate (their walls don't cost stone and they have +10% maximum population limit)
• Persians have -5% wood gather rate (their centres have +10% territory influence radius and they have +10% maximum population limit)
• each wonder grants +1.0 silver, food, wood, metal, and stone per 2.0 seconds resource trickle rate
  • garrisoned units (up to 50) heal at 5.0 health per second
  • 50 m aura: nearby units heal at 2.0 health per second
  • 100 m aura: traders and workers +5% movement speed
  • (stackable) global aura: units -10% training time (per wonder)
  • (stackable) global aura, requires “Glorious Expansion” technology: structures +10% territory influence radius (per wonder)
  • (stackable) global aura, requires “Glorious Expansion” technology: +10% maximum population limit (per wonder)
• numerous minor tweaks, etc.

As usual, see 0abc-readme.pdf for more detailed information.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Nescio
ce

[sphyrth]

I haven't checked yet, but I believe that your GUI Elements are begging to be put in a Sidebar. (Please ignore the bottom part. It's just a rushed attempt to put everything on one side)


And why not? Some games did it. Take Caesar 3 for example.


All it needs is a way to handle all the buildable/trainable stuff when they can't fit on the entire screen. Just like how Red Alert 2 does it.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

22 hours ago, leper said:

They aren't compressed, they are however packed into one file

Hmm, I was under the mistaken impression that many of the files were compressed into smaller more efficient binary files or formats for the alpha releases. PNGs compressed to DDS. XML files to XMB?

[Stan`]

That part is true however I don't think js files have such an equivalent 

[SirPope]

This works with svn? Do I need to copy the svn's tortoise folder to a new one or... can I just paste it in the mod folder there without breaking the update function of tortoise? It took me 4 to 5 hours to download. If I have to do it again less then a week later I'll cry.

Extracting public.zip and defragmenting the folder I put it in sped 0ad up quiet a bit for me at least (probably just the defragment really). You may want to defrag the cache files as well that could be a problem if you're slowing down a bit. If it's the first time loading a mod or map the cache is filled (I think the first time and not everytime). A lot of junk gets moved around. Computers just look for empty space on the hard drive and shoves it in it there. Check pyrogenesis.exe page fault number in task manager and see what it says. If it's 1 million (or somewhat relatively close to it), you might want to defrag the folders. Defraggler has a defrag folder option and the newer windows might by default IDK. The hard drive works fast but with a program that requires a lot of files, that could mean a tiny slowdown for everyone of them.

 

I think the cache contains some what compressed version of it.

[Nescio]

11 hours ago, sphyrth said:

I haven't checked yet, but I believe that your GUI Elements are begging to be put in a Sidebar. (Please ignore the bottom part. It's just a rushed attempt to put everything on one side)

And why not? Some games did it. Take Caesar 3 for example.

All it needs is a way to handle all the buildable/trainable stuff when they can't fit on the entire screen. Just like how Red Alert 2 does it.

It is a possibility I've considered myself earlier but rejected for several reasons. (Caesar III is a simple but great game, I really liked it years ago.)

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Hmm, I was under the mistaken impression that many of the files were compressed into smaller more efficient binary files or formats for the alpha releases. PNGs compressed to DDS. XML files to XMB?

3 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

That part is true however I don't think js files have such an equivalent 

The size of 0abc's simulation folder isn't the issue (only 2 MB, compressing it won't make a significant difference), but its number of files (over 3000) apparently is, or actually setting up the AI.

I repeat, in 0abc generating a giant random map with no population limit and eight “none” AI players takes about 18 seconds. Having a “Petra Bot” AI instead increases the time by about 180 seconds, a tenfold increase.

Although it's especially noticeable with 0abc, undoubtedly other mods are experiencing the same problem, albeit in a different degree.

3 hours ago, SirPope said:

This works with svn? Do I need to copy the svn's tortoise folder to a new one or... can I just paste it in the mod folder there without breaking the update function of tortoise? It took me 4 to 5 hours to download. If I have to do it again less then a week later I'll cry.

Extracting public.zip and defragmenting the folder I put it in sped 0ad up quiet a bit for me at least (probably just the defragment really). You may want to defrag the cache files as well that could be a problem if you're slowing down a bit. If it's the first time loading a mod or map the cache is filled (I think the first time and not everytime). A lot of junk gets moved around. Computers just look for empty space on the hard drive and shoves it in it there. Check pyrogenesis.exe page fault number in task manager and see what it says. If it's 1 million (or somewhat relatively close to it), you might want to defrag the folders. Defraggler has a defrag folder option and the newer windows might by default IDK. The hard drive works fast but with a program that requires a lot of files, that could mean a tiny slowdown for everyone of them.

 

I think the cache contains some what compressed version of it.

Sorry, I don't think I fully understand your post. If your question is if 0abc works with 0 A.D.'s svn version (A23), the answer is no, it works with the latest stable release (A22). However, I believe you're referring to something else.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Nescio
ce

[Servo]

@Nescio I can’t delete a Seleucid corral on my current game, same as the Ptolemy one. The update before the latest. I was able to do it two updates before the latest. I will try with the new updates anyhow. 

Btw I’m able to build enemy structures again using captured units, thanks, though faction abilities are not in effect like free houses, dropsites etc for Ptolemy which is not a problem to me.

Romans and Iberians are doing really well with massive armies (combinations of regular and champs) plus rams. But Ptolemy doesn’t make siege and if I remember doesn’t make siege workshop. I think I might try against Carthage. They used to produce range sieges a lot. 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Servo

[Grugnas]

On 11/13/2017 at 3:00 PM, Nescio said:

females and infantry can gather food.fish (useful if there is fish in shallow water)

this is really nice! i was wondering if it makes sense to have citizens able to use fishing rods in order to fish in "fish pools" from a let's say 10-20 meters distance  and basically have them fishing faster while garrisoning fishing boats. it would even be visually pleasant with a proper animation ( i am not aware of the used fishing techniques though but perhaps nets would be more effective in mass fishing )

[Servo]

Been playing the mod for a while now on SP and have some of the observations:

1. Most if not all range units animations are not quite accurate. The projectiles they throw mostly come out from the center of the body and/or not from releasing hand/weapons. Is there a new animation for Seleucid champ cavalry? They smack the enemy!

2. Units promoted don’t change appearance though they get the upgrade qualities. 

3. Some AIs don’t progress towards P3 and seems like the size of maps has something to do with it especially in multiple players. They build too much farms. Shouldn’t there be limits? Two AI opponents on Alphine Mountains can’t go thru P3 if I occupy a little less than half of the entire map. 

1V3 on Corinthian Isthmus, most of the time only 2 AI opponents can advance to P3, maybe unless you give room to them to build more than 4 CC. Btw 4 players at 300 pop lags but 3 players is good from .25 to .75 speed. 

4. Captured women can’t garrison houses but all infantry units can.

4. Gastrapetes/crossbows have very big weapons. Shouldn’t it be like the loaded arrow be shown?

5. Roman infantries  kind of having some bugs whenever you click on them...seems like about shipyard.

6. Can’t delete corrals!

7. Needs new siege buildings. You use a blacksmith for it though it’s producing units.

So far the mod is really nice. The fourth resources(silver) is a good add-on. At least it’s realistic to buy using silver or gold even if bartering remains. Allowing to build storehouse, farmstead, palisades and wooden walls in neutral territory is really nice for SP . 

Balancing seems fine and hope the devs can improve path finding and AI behavior.

 

 

[Stan`]

@Nescio about the XML caching I believe we do cache them as xmb though we package the XML in the game as well. I think @leper or @Itms told me it's because we still want mods ability on the released version.

@Servo 1. Sounds really weird.

4. Should probably be discussed with @Alexandermb

[Alexandermb]

6 hours ago, Servo said:

4. Gastrapetes/crossbows have very big weapons. Shouldn’t it be like the loaded arrow be shown.

I didn't understand, what is exactly needed in the gastraphetes? 

[Nescio]

On 04/12/2017 at 4:50 PM, Servo said:

Been playing the mod for a while now on SP and have some of the observations:

Thanks for posting, I appreciate feedback and bug reports, etc.

1. Animations, visual actors, etc. are things I typically do not touch, therefore they ought to be the same as in A22. I've standardized reload times (for human soldiers to 1000 ms) though, thus the animation might be out of pace with the precie moment when the damage is exactly inflicted, however, that is not something which is of high importance to me.

2. That's true. Creating twelve different versions of any soldier would make this mod unnecessarily large (it's supposed to be lightweight). Besides, using just one visual actor for all ranks has several advantages: it keeps the unit recognizable; it allows the other two existing visual actors to be used for other units of other factions; changing a unit's outfit mid-combat seemed weird.

3. Researching City phase ought to be unproblematic; I'll try to reproduce it later and see if I can figure out what is the issue. The high number of farms is probably the result of only of the latest changes, i.e. the introduction of a minimum distance of farms to centres; it's something which I'm trying out and might revert.

4W. “Captured women”?

4G. That's intended. The Gastraphetes was a hand-held siege weapon, not the relatively small hunting crossbow of Late Antiquity, those of Medieval warfare, or our modern lightweight plastic versions.

5. Could you be more precise? Maybe a typo somewhere, I'll have a look.

6. Annoying. I thought I had solved that weeks ago. I'll have another look at it.

7. New visual actors for new structures are being added to A23. Because I prefer to keep 0abc small (a few MB), I do not intend to include them; reusing existing graphics is an efficient temporary solution.

When I have time for 0 A.D. again, I'll have a more careful look and try to solve the bugs you mentioned. I'm quite busy with other things these few weeks.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Nescio
ce

[Servo]

Thanks Nescio. 

Yeah I researched Gastrapetes and there are many types and one of them is like the one Alexander did. 

Im very fond of using wololo to capture a couple of enemy units so I can build some of the buildings I like to have in my territory and that’s what I noticed from the gameplay that 0abc have. My own Civ women can enter almost all buildings that can be garrisoned but captured ones can’t. But in the mod the infantry can enter houses and storehouse etc to keep the building/s in neutral territory which is a nice feature that the vanilla doesn’t have. The walls, turrets and wooden walls as long as garrisoned can be kept too! The palisades don’t become Gaia either in neutral territory which is really nice!

I think if the gates can be modified to at least allow to be garrisoned in the side maybe one slot each on each end they won’t turn into Gaia. Anyhow wololo is always there.

 

[Nescio]

0abc updated, changes include amongst other things:

• corrals can be deleted again (there was a typo: "2x4" instead of "4x2")
• all technology research times are multiplied by 1.5 (to make the game slower paced)
• all unit training times are multiplied by 2.0 (to encourage keeping your units alive)
• all military buildings each consume 1 food per 5 seconds (to make barracks spamming more costly)
  • this negative resource trickle rate can result in getting a negative food stockpile (I think it's interesting enough to try it out, although I might change it later)
• changed silver trickle rates:
  • wonders: 2 silver per 1 second (and no other resources)
  • palaces: 1 silver per 1 second
  • catafalques: 1 silver per 2 seconds
• more structure auras:
  • 15 m from houses: females +1 crush, hack, and pierce armour
  • 20 m from corrals: workers +15% food.meat gather rate
  • 30 m from farmsteads: workers +10% food.grain gather rate
  • 40 m from storehouses: workers +5% wood.tree gather rate
  • 60 m from rotary mills: workers +20% food.grain gather rate
  • 100 m, 75 m, 50 m, 25 m from centres: civic structures +10% capture points, workers +5% build speed, -5% resource gather speed, +1% movement speed
    • these bonuses combine (so if a worker is within 25 m of a centre, i.e. practically adjacent, it builds at 121.55% and gathers at 81.45%) but do not stack (a worker within 100 m of three centres gets the 100 m aura only once)
• finally separated builders from workers:
  • females can gather, but can no longer build
  • citizen soldiers can both gather and build
  • mercenary soldiers can no longer gather, but can build
  • champion soldiers can neither gather, nor build
• many other tweaks I did longer ago and have partially forgotten by now

Have a look at the 0abc-readme.pdf for more detailed information.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Nescio
ce

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

15 hours ago, Nescio said:

this negative resource trickle rate can result in getting a negative food stockpile (I think it's interesting enough to try it out, although I might change it later)

I tried this once with making unit consume food, and when it goes negative you can afford everything. It's like infinite resources or something.*

 

*It was a long while ago, so this may have changed.

[Nescio]

11 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I tried this once with making unit consume food,

That's something I've considered as well (it works great in Cossacks), however, it would also involve a farming overhaul etc., which is why I don't intend to try out human food consumption, or mercenary silver consumption, not yet at least.

11 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

when it goes negative you can afford everything. It's like infinite resources or something.*

Interesting. It is no longer the case though. I tested it out earlier and checked it again now: when I have -10 food I can't train a female, and the tooltip states “Insufficient resources: 60 food”. Also, the AI is able to keep its food stock positive, at least in yesterday's test game.

[Nescio]

Happy New Year!

0abc has been updated again:

• Ships cost 0 population
  • Fishing boats are limited to two per dock
  • Merchant ships are limited to five per market
  • Warships are not limited but consume a significant amount of silver each 30 seconds
• Centres have +20% build time, health, and territory influence radius per phase; furthermore:
  • no phase: base cost is 500 wood; 25 m and 50 m auras enabled; no silver trickle rate
  • village phase: +500 food cost; 75 m aura enabled; grant 1 silver per 7 seconds
  • town phase: +500 stone cost; 100 m aura enabled; grant 2 silver per 7 seconds
  • city phase: +500 metal cost; 125 m aura enabled; grant 3 silver per 7 seconds
  • metropolis phase: +500 silver cost; 150 m aura enabled; grant 4 silver per 7 seconds
• Upkeep:
  • Military structures consume 1 food per 7 seconds
  • Lighthouses consume 1 wood per 7 seconds
  • Libraries consume 2 silver per 7 seconds
  • Harbours consume 1 food and 1 silver per 7 seconds
  • Fortresses consume 1 silver per 7 seconds
  • Warships consume silver, mercenaries consume silver, champions consume food
• Fanatics no longer benefit from armour technologies
• Females can no longer be trained at the centre; houses no longer count towards town phase requirement; unlock research requirement is removed, females can always be trained at houses
• Changed a few civilization bonuses from autoresearched technologies to permanent global auras
• Various minor edits

As usual, have a look at the 0abc-readme.pdf reference document for more detailed information.

On 07/12/2017 at 5:52 PM, Servo said:

I think if the gates can be modified to at least allow to be garrisoned in the side maybe one slot each on each end they won’t turn into Gaia.

For your information, I tried it out and subsequently reverted it, because if units are garrisoned on top of the gates, the doors are permanently gaping wide open (even if you command it to be locked).

Edited January 2, 2018 by Nescio
ce

[Servo]

Fourth resource is really good to the game, upkeep costs too!

[Nescio]

0abc updated again:

• re-added females to centres, because the AI had often (but not always) difficulty in the Village phase; apparently there is some strict build order (e.g. first females, then houses, then town phase?)
• Market is available in Village phase; Town phase requires four economic class structures; City phase one temple class structure; metropolis phase (available to mace, ptol, sele) requires one theatre class structure
• tweaked food gather rates:
  • female: 0.5 grain, 0.75 meat
  • slave: 0.35 grain, 0.8 meat
  • melee citizen infantry: 0.3 grain, 0.9 meat
  • ranged citizen infantry: 0.25 grain, 1.0 meat
• mercenaries cost 60% less food to compensate for their silver upkeep
• siege weapons can be constructed twice as quickly

Have a look at 0abc-readme.pdf for more detailed information.

[Servo]

I’m going to try you mod again. Though I switched to vanilla because I need the AI to behave militarily.

BTW have you ever thought about making your mod as close to real in terms of combat? I know devs would not really go this far due to tight works or less manpower. 

1. Damage on soldiers to be having significant  effect for example below 50% HP can’t move anymore nor can gather resources.  Ranged units can easily kill or disable enemy with 1 or 2 hits though projectiles can be dodged and nerf the accuracy on moving targets. 

Melee combat can be just fine (as ease) if they are really fighting each other but if the target is not defending a 1 or 2 hits can either kill or disable the target. Units with shields should have a stance to to deflect projectiles. 

2. Food (consumed)and silver (wages) should trickle down  depending on the number of units available. This will discourage deleting women to produce more combat units. Taxation or any form of activity to increase silver can be imposed too to increase treasury.

3. Day and night cycle to halt resource gathering or production and even give a player a little break(maybe 1 minute after every 10 minutes of play and discuss(team games) strategy. 

This game is really the closest to become more realistic. 

[Nescio]

On 09/02/2018 at 8:28 PM, Servo said:

Though I switched to vanilla because I need the AI to behave militarily.

The AI is designed for the un-modified default 0 A.D. distribution. The more a mod changes, the less likely it is the AI will perform decently. However, if I notice the AI is not capable of handling something in 0abc, I tend to revert it. E.g. I tried removing females from centres, which often resulted in the AI getting stuck in the Village Phase, therefore I re-added females to centres shortly afterwards.

Ideally I'd like to upgrade centres individually from village to town to city, replacing the current one-time phases. However, I am unlikely to try that out, because I believe the AI is incapable of handling it.

On 09/02/2018 at 8:28 PM, Servo said:

BTW have you ever thought about making your mod as close to real in terms of combat?

Although I do value realism, total realism is not necessarily a good idea. Playability, balance, historical accuracy, and preserving 0 A.D.'s flavour are at least as important.

1) could be easily implemented by reducing unit health to e.g. 10% (i.e. multiply by 0.1); have a look at https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23904-global-multipliers/ to try it out yourself However, I doubt it'll be a good idea if units are killed in a single hit.

2) is something I might try out. Partially replacing food costs with a food consumption (trickle rate) is under consideration. I might expand on it (cf. Cossacks) or revert it, I haven't decided. By the way, the phases currently serve as taxation technologies. E.g. in village phase you get 1 silver per 7 seconds per centre, in town phase 2, in city phase 3, in metropolis phase 4.

3) personally I consider one second to be the equivalent of a day, so a minute would equal two months, and an hour about ten years, enough to conquer a neighbouring empire. I don't think visibly implementing a day-and-night work and lighting cycle would be a good idea.

And if you want a break to discuss strategy, just use the pause button

Edited February 10, 2018 by Nescio
ce