===[TASK]=== Kushite Units, Unit Textures, and Unit Props

[Sundiata]

So just to be clear, lion-man will be the "Apedemak's Temple Guard", or "Apedemak's Faithful", and khopesh-man will be the "Napatan Temple Guard", or "Amun's Faithful". Obviously champion units.

@niektb @wowgetoffyourcellphone Maybe a choice between either structure and thus recruitable unit wouldn't be so bad indeed. Amun temple is more expensive, but offers more techs. Apedemak temple cheap, but less tech? I'm so undecided... Maybe a late tech from the wonder makes both buildable?  

Same for the merc camp. You either build a Nuba merc camp (round huts, with a high, pointy thatched roof, 1 big and 2 small huts), or a Blemmye merc camp (2 roundish tents covered in animal hides and a simple rectangular brick structure with flat roof). Can they be built in neutral territory? 

Merc camp references: 

Spoiler

Beja settlement:

 

"Large" south Sudanese round hut:

 

small South Sudanese round hut:

 

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by Sundiata

[niektb]

Not sure about having the ability to train multiple special units at a merc camp in addition to the fortress ánd the temple too btw (unless these mercs are just some citizen-soldier type units with metal cost instead of food, that could work). I would be really in for some drastic narrowing as a result of tech pairs...

[Sundiata]

The merc camps provide cheap trash units. Canon fodder basically. Nuba mercs have no armour whatsoever... Blemmye mercs neither. They're just cheap, and are good hunters. Can be used to harass the enemy close to their border.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Sundiata

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Sundiata said:

 @niektb That's kind of what I'm worried about. Kushites are going to be so "badass" people will complain, but I don't want to handicap them or sell them short either, so this is a subject that will need to be discussed further.

 

 

10 hours ago, niektb said:

We should make sure that the Kushites don't get access to too many different champions (at the same time), it would make them really OP i think. Doing both a full mercenary roster ánd a diverse champion roster is also going to be problematic.

 

The best way to eliminate redundancy and hopefully don't overload their roster is to look at roles and only put one unit per role. For instance, it's currently spec'ed that there's a citizen-soldier axeman and a champion axeman. Axes are unique enough weapons in the game that having two of the same type of unit might seem a bit overkill. I know some other civs double-up this way, but if you're looking to streamline things this is the best way to cut.

Obviously, the Apekasjsdjhgs's Faithful axeman should remain. I'd say the citizen-soldier axeman can be replaced with a swordsman that uses a sword similar to this one on the left. 

It's a unique looking piece of equipment, and the general blade shape seems to be used on multiple examples.

 

For the mercs, I suggest you only have one buildable Mercenary Village that houses all 4 of the mercs, Nuba and Blemmye. While for scenarios you can have the 2 separate ones modeled and working, for skirmishes and random maps I think one unified one would be better, else you overwhelm the player with choice. You can say "What about the Carthaginians?" I'd say that's a fairly unique aspect of one singular civ and is probably better to keep it that way. Or...... what about this? The Kushite player receives one free Blemmye Village and one free Nuba Village at the start of the match, out near the edges of the player's territory. The units aren't trainable until Phase II. I already do something very much like this for the Greek civs and their free Stoa.

 

Changed my mind, I think those Villages, one for each ethnicity would work fine. What's good for Carthage is good for another. Maybe they are restricted to being built in neutral territory and are easily capturable.

 

For the Temple and the Temple Guards, for TM, since it's trying to remain a rather straight forward mod without too many changes to the core game, I think there are 3 options:

1. Have 2 buildable temples, each with their own champions and unique aspects. Easiest.

2. Have 1 generic temple that can be upgraded to one or the other temple, Amun or Apedemak. No need for modding code on this one. I already do something like this with the Mauryan Maiden Archer, and the core game already does this with the sentry towers, so it's an established feature already.

3. Have 1 generic temple that has both champions available, but like with the Seleucid reform techs, have a tech pair that unlocks one or the other. 

 

 

If the AOM-style choice UI is ever implemented, then that opens up all kinds of cool possibilities, but for now if I were you I'd choose one of the above options.

Edited September 3, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, niektb said:

Not sure about having the ability to train multiple special units at a merc camp in addition to the fortress ánd the temple too btw (unless these mercs are just some citizen-soldier type units with metal cost instead of food, that could work). I would be really in for some drastic narrowing as a result of tech pairs...

Not necessary it's supossed have trash and special.

historical it's correct.

[niektb]

9 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Or...... what about this? The Kushite player receives one free Blemmye Village and one free Nuba Village at the start of the match, out near the edges of the player's territory. The units aren't trainable until Phase II. I already do something very much like this for the Greek civs and their free Stoa.

I think that might be an idea for Delenda Est, for TM we should maybe look for a different solution (as vanilla doesn't really do anything with pre-placed buildings except for the Iberian walls)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, niektb said:

I think that might be an idea for Delenda Est, for TM we should maybe look for a different solution (as vanilla doesn't really do anything with pre-placed buildings except for the Iberian walls)

Original post edited:

 

For the mercs, I suggest you only have one buildable Mercenary Village that houses all 4 of the mercs, Nuba and Blemmye. While for scenarios you can have the 2 separate ones modeled and working, for skirmishes and random maps I think one unified one would be better, else you overwhelm the player with choice. You can say "What about the Carthaginians?" I'd say that's a fairly unique aspect of one singular civ and is probably better to keep it that way. Or...... what about this? The Kushite player receives one free Blemmye Village and one free Nuba Village at the start of the match, out near the edges of the player's territory. The units aren't trainable until Phase II. I already do something very much like this for the Greek civs and their free Stoa.

 

Changed my mind, I think those Villages, one for each ethnicity would work fine. What's good for Carthage is good for another. Maybe they are restricted to being built in neutral territory and are easily capturable.

 

For the Temple and the Temple Guards, for TM, since it's trying to remain a rather straight forward mod without too many changes to the core game, I think there are 3 options:

1. Have 2 buildable temples, each with their own champions and unique aspects. Easiest.

2. Have 1 generic temple that can be upgraded to one or the other temple, Amun or Apedemak. No need for modding code on this one. I already do something like this with the Mauryan Maiden Archer, and the core game already does this with the sentry towers, so it's an established feature already.

3. Have 1 generic temple that has both champions available, but like with the Seleucid reform techs, have a tech pair that unlocks one or the other. 

 

 

If the AOM-style choice UI is ever implemented, then that opens up all kinds of cool possibilities, but for now if I were you I'd choose one of the above options.

Edited September 3, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

[Sundiata]

Ooooh, nice! 

 

 

[Stan`]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone maybe @LordGood could make a logo for delenda est toujours put it on promotional stuff. I was using yours with the blood but you seem to have changed.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

24 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone maybe @LordGood could make a logo for delenda est toujours put it on promotional stuff. I was using yours with the blood but you seem to have changed.

I was just too lazy to put the blood.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

@Sundiata?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

An attempt was made. Elite Nubian Archer. 

 

 

He's the elite archer, so would have 3 feathers in his hair. Advanced has 2. Basic only has one. This is for the Nubian Archer and Nubian Spearman only. His hair also needs to have some geometry, either as a "helmet" model exported to sit at the head prop point, or as a whole new head model, which might be easier in the long run. Looks like an upside down bowl.

Edited September 4, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Need a custom head model or two for the Nubian males, like this:

Spoiler

I think the geometry should be slightly exaggerated to make it visible.

 

Need the earrings prop in the game, it model's position readjusted downward a little bit, exported at the head position. This model is used for both the Mauryans and Kushites.

Spoiler

 

 

Need a custom head model for the Nubian females. Like this:

Spoiler

Instead of a whole head, it can be a "helmet" model if you wish, but should be exported at the head position so that it doesn't disappear when she's gathering.

 

Need the ostrich feather props modeled. 1, 2, and 3 feathers, exported at the head prop point so they don't disappear when the unit is gathering. I'd imagine we'd make the feathers player color.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Sundiata]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Cool! The archers are looking really good!

Also:  "the Apekasjsdjhgs's Faithful axeman"  

Spoiler

I guess you're referring to the shield depicted on this unit?

I posted it earlier (here). It's a 2D render of a Total War unit for Kush. At the time I couldn't find any references for that shield type/shape, apart from it being popular in East-Africa in more recent times. Recently I did come across a depiction of this type on a figurine from Ptolemaic Egypt, featuring  a Kushite mercenary. I'm still not entirely convinced that a single reference from outside of Kush is enough to feature it, but then again, 19th century examples exist from Sudan. Make of it what you will, but if you want to see them in game, reserve it for some of the Nuba mercs, and avoid it for Nubians/Meroites/Blemmye. It's very "tribal" looking, from Southern Sudan. Leather examples also exist.

19th century examples:

 

 

 

[Sundiata]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone The triple Nubian feathers:

 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Nubian Archer portrait with makeshift hair helmet and fake feather props. You can see how the earrings need fixed and the desired shape of the hair.

I think the Advanced would take away the leather hemithorax, use a more plain animal hide for the skirt, have a less flashy necklace, and 2 feathers.

I think the Basic would basically wear just a player color loincloth, no necklace, or plain necklace, and 1 feather.

 

 

For the heck of it, here are the Nuba merc portraits.

 

Clubdude will get a new portrait when we get new shields in. I'm guessing the nuba would just have wicker shields. @Sundiata, you should make a post where you assign shield shapes and patterns to the different unit types.

 

Lastly, a couple of cool body texture variations, one covered completely in ash, the other covered in clay mud.

Edited September 5, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Apedemak Temple Guard's lion garb?

Edited September 8, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

These aren't finalized by any means, just showing some texture variation so far.

 

One easy way to show ethnicity would be to give the Nubians the ochre hair and the Meroites black hair. Swordsman+Pikeman = Meroitic. Archer and Spearman = Nubian. Leave the leopard print stuff to the Nubians and go linen for the Meroites?

Edited September 8, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[av93]

The clubs are final? Feels like a baseball stick. Someone have post some reference about it? Maybe I missed.

[Stan`]

I plan to do some. Haven't started yet.

[Sundiata]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Looking fantastic! 

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

One easy way to show ethnicity would be to give the Nubians the ochre hair and the Meroites black hair. Swordsman+Pikeman = Meroitic. Archer and Spearman = Nubian. Leave the leopard print stuff to the Nubians and go linen for the Meroites?

Yes please   Kushite (Meroitic/late-Napatan) heroes can have an entire leopard pelt draped over the shoulder though, not unlike the priest. Underneath will have a linen/cotton garment, either to their ankles or their knees. But I will try to illustrate the heroes more clearly later on.

Amun temple guard could also have a leopard print "Egyptian" shield. 

For the pikemen, I was thinking they should have those same Egyptian shaped shields. New Kingdom Egyptian spearmen fought in phalanx, so it would be quite appropriate for a pike unit.

 I was out of town so couldn't get much done on a post about shields, but I'll get it done as soon as I can. As you've possible guessed, I still have a lot of posts prepared about various subjects, full of references and ideas, that need to be posted as soon as I can. Especially since LordGood has basically already finished the architecture set, and the work you guys are doing with the units is really good stuff! I can barely keep up with you people  But you're all making very intuitive use of the references which really pleases me very much   

@av93 @stanislas69  @wowgetoffyourcellphone  I'm wondering if I'm not the only that's not a total fan of the clubs. I'm sure they would have still been around to some extent, but it just feels like such an irrelevant weapon in the iron age setting of the game that I don't think it's necessary.. I think the mace would be more fitting.

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Sundiata

[Lion.Kanzen]

Aristeia have some Egyptian shields.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

[Lion.Kanzen]

I love it. 

Spoiler