Crowd-Sourced Civ: Seleucids

[Stan`]

  On 05/02/2018 at 2:46 PM, Alexandermb said:

someone has considered using the template <GarrisonHolder> <VisibleGarrisongPoints> to allow it have units above? (if planned the garrison holder template needs to have some patch to make the unit obstruction translate from the root to the garrison point height)

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I did have patch at some point. That allowed multiple units on a single unit.

@bb_ has taken on it since.

The patch was #2577.

[Nescio]

Yes, I'm dusting off this old topic. 0 A.D.'s Seleucids have a great architecture set, but I think it's time to have a critical look at their unit roster, as @Genava55 is doing elsewhere for the Britons and Gauls.

To start with, I think the Seleucid troops should be based on the reign of Antiochus III the Great (r. 222–187 BC), for several reasons:

• representative for the Seleucid empire (312–63 BC); a century earlier it was founded; a century later it was reduced to a rump state
• contemporary of Hannibal, Scipio, and Philip V
• successful general, many victories (and some defeats), reasserting control over various regions
• texts from several authors (Polybius, Livius, Arrian) have survived

Polybius lists Antiochus' army the Battle of Raphia (217 BC):

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[1] χώρησε μετὰ τῆς δυνάμεως εἰς Πέργαμον· Ἀντίοχος δὲ καὶ Πτολεμαῖος, τῆς ἐαρινῆς ὥρας ἐνισταμένης, ἑτοίμας ἔχοντες τὰς παρασκευὰς ἐγίνοντο πρὸς τῷ διὰ μάχης κρίνειν τὴν ἔφοδον. [2] οἱ μὲν οὖν περὶ τὸν Πτολεμαῖον ὥρμησαν ἐκ τῆς Ἀλεξανδρείας, ἔχοντες πεζῶν μὲν εἰς ἑπτὰ μυριάδας, ἱππεῖς δὲ πεντακισχιλίους, ἐλέφαντας ἑβδομήκοντα τρεῖς· [3] Ἀντίοχος δὲ γνοὺς τὴν ἔφοδον αὐτῶν συνῆγε τὰς δυνάμεις. ἦσαν δ᾽ αὗται Δάαι μὲν καὶ Καρμάνιοι καὶ Κίλικες εἰς τὸν τῶν εὐζώνων τρόπον καθωπλισμένοι περὶ πεντακισχιλίους· τούτων δ᾽ ἅμα τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν εἶχε καὶ τὴν ἡγεμονίαν Βύττακος ὁ Μακεδών. [4] ὑπὸ δὲ Θεόδοτον τὸν Αἰτωλὸν τὸν ποιησάμενον τὴν προδοσίαν ἦσαν ἐκ πάσης ἐκλελεγμένοι τῆς βασιλείας, καθωπλισμένοι δ᾽ εἰς τὸν Μακεδονικὸν τρόπον, ἄνδρες μύριοι· τούτων οἱ πλείονες ἀργυράσπιδες. [5] τὸ δὲ τῆς φάλαγγος πλῆθος ἦν εἰς δυσμυρίους, ἧς ἡγεῖτο Νίκαρχος καὶ Θεόδοτος ὁ καλούμενος ἡμιόλιος. [6] πρὸς δὲ τούτοις Ἀγριᾶνες καὶ Πέρσαι τοξόται καὶ σφενδονῆται δισχίλιοι. μετὰ δὲ τούτων χίλιοι Θρᾷκες, ὧν ἡγεῖτο Μενέδημος Ἀλαβανδεύς. [7] ὑπῆρχον δὲ καὶ Μήδων καὶ Κισσίων καὶ Καδουσίων καὶ Καρμανῶν οἱ πάντες εἰς πεντακισχιλίους, οἷς ἀκούειν Ἀσπασιανοῦ προσετέτακτο τοῦ Μήδου. [8] Ἄραβες δὲ καί τινες τῶν τούτοις προσχώρων ἦσαν μὲν εἰς μυρίους, ὑπετάττοντο δὲ Ζαβδιβήλῳ. [9] τῶν δ᾽ ἀπὸ τῆς Ἑλλάδος μισθοφόρων ἡγεῖτο μὲν Ἱππόλοχος Θετταλός, ὑπῆρχον δὲ τὸν ἀριθμὸν εἰς πεντακισχιλίους. [10] Κρῆτας δὲ χιλίους μὲν καὶ πεντακοσίους εἶχε τοὺς μετ᾽ Εὐρυλόχου, χιλίους δὲ Νεόκρητας τοὺς ὑπὸ Ζέλυν τὸν Γορτύνιον ταττομένους· [11] οἷς ἅμα συνῆσαν ἀκοντισταὶ Λυδοὶ πεντακόσιοι καὶ Κάρδακες οἱ μετὰ Λυσιμάχου τοῦ Γαλάτου χίλιοι. [12] τῶν δ᾽ ἱππέων ἦν τὸ πᾶν πλῆθος εἰς ἑξακισχιλίους· εἶχε δὲ τῶν μὲν τετρακισχιλίων τὴν ἡγεμονίαν Ἀντίπατρος ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως ἀδελφιδοῦς, ἐπὶ δὲ τῶν λοιπῶν ἐτέτακτο Θεμίσων. [13] καὶ τῆς μὲν Ἀντιόχου δυνάμεως τὸ πλῆθος ἦν πεζοὶ μὲν ἑξακισμύριοι καὶ δισχίλιοι, σὺν δὲ τούτοις ἱππεῖς ἑξακισχίλιοι, θηρία δὲ δυσὶ πλείω τῶν ἑκατόν.

— http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb.+5.79&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0233

[1] At the beginning of the following spring, having all preparations for war completed, Antiochus and Ptolemy determined to bring their claims to Coele-Syria to the decision of a battle. [2] Ptolemy accordingly set out from Alexandria with seventy thousand infantry, five thousand cavalry, and seventy-three elephants. [3] Being informed of his approach, Antiochus drew his forces together. These consisted of Daae, Carmani, and Cilicians, equipped as light-armed troops to the number of about five thousand, under the charge and command of Byttacus the Macedonian. [4] Under Theodotus, the Aetolian, who had deserted from Ptolemy, were ten thousand picked men from the whole kingdom, armed in the Macedonian fashion, most of whom had silver shields. [5] The number of the phalanx was twenty thousand, and they were led by Nicarchus and Theodotus Hemiolius. [6] In addition to these there were Agrianes and Persians, who were either bowmen or slingers, to the number of two thousand. With them were a thousand Thracians, under the command of Menedemus of Alabanda. [7] There was also a mixed force of Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians, amounting to five thousand men, who were assigned to the chief command of Aspasianus the Mede. [8] Certain Arabians also and men of neighbouring tribes, to the number of ten thousand, were commanded by Zabdibelus. [9] The mercenaries from Greece amounting to five thousand were led by Hippolochus of Thessaly. [10] Antiochus had also fifteen hundred Cretans who came with Eurylochus, and a thousand Neo-Cretans commanded by Zelys of Gortyna; [11] with whom were five hundred javelin-men of Lydia, and a thousand Cardaces who came with Lysimachus the Gaul. [12] The entire number of his horse was six thousand; four thousand were commanded by the king's nephew Antipater, the rest by Themison: [13] so that the whole number of Antiochus's force was sixty-two thousand infantry, six thousand cavalry, and one hundred and two elephants.

— http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb.+5.79&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234

Livy describes his army at the Battle of Magnesia (190 BC):

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regia acies varia magis multis gentibus, dissimilitudine armorum auxiliorumque erat. decem et sex milia peditum more Macedonum armati fuere, qui phalangitae appellabantur. haec media acies fuit, [2] in fronte in decem partes divisa; partes eas interpositis binis elephantis distinguebat; a fronte introrsus in duos et triginta ordines armatorum acies patebat. [3] hoc et roboris in regiis copiis erat, et perinde @#&#036;% alia specie tum eminentibus tantum inter armatos elephantis magnum terrorem praebebat. [4] ingentes ipsi erant; addebant speciem frontalia et cristae et tergo impositae turres turribusque superstantes praeter rectorem quaterni armati. [5] ad latus dextrum phalangitarum mille et quingentos Gallograecorum pedites opposuit. his tria milia equitum loricatorum—cataphractos ipsi appellant—adiunxit. addita his ala mille ferme equitum; [6] agema eam vocabant; Medi erant, lecti viri, et eiusdem regionis mixti multarum gentium equites. [7] continens his grex sedecim elephantorum est oppositus in subsidiis. ab eadem parte, [8] paulum producto cornu, regia cohors erat; argyraspides a genere armorum appellabantur; Dahae deinde, equites sagittarii, mille et ducenti; tum levis armatura, trium milium, pari ferme numero, pars Cretenses, pars Tralles; duo milia et quingenti Mysi sagittarii his adiuncti erant. [9] extremum cornu claudebant quattuor [p. 328] milia, mixti Cyrtii funditores et Elymaei sagittarii. [10] ab laevo cornu phalangitis adiuncti erant Gallograeci pedites mille et quingenti et similiter his armati duo milia Cappadocum—ab Ariarathe missi erant regi—; [11] inde auxiliares mixti omnium generum, duo milia septingenti, et tria milia cataphractorum equitum et mille alii equites, regia ala levioribus tegumentis suis equorumque, alio haud dissimili habitu; Syri plerique erant Phrygibus et Lydis immixti. [12] ante hunc equitatum falcatae quadrigae et cameli, quos appellant dromadas. his insidebant Arabes sagittarii, gladios tenuis habentes longos quaterna cubita, ut ex tanta altitudine contingere hostem possent. [13] inde alia multitudo, par ei, quae in dextro cornu erat: primi Tarentini, deinde Gallograecorum equitum duo milia et quingenti, inde Neocretes mille et eodem armatu Cares et Cilices mille et quingenti et totidem Tralles et quattuor milia caetratorum: [14] Pisidae erant et Pamphylii et Lycii; tum Cyrtiorum et Elymaeorum paria in dextro cornu locatis auxilia, et sedecim elephanti modico intervallo distantes.

 — http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv.+37+40&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0172

The king's battle-line was more varied, made up of many races and auxiliary forces differently armed. There were sixteen thousand infantry armed in the Macedonian fashion, who are called phalangitae. [7] They formed the centre of the line, and their frontage was divided into ten sections; these sections were separated by intervals in which two elephants each were placed; from the front the formation extended thirty-two ranks in depth. [8] This was the main strength of the king's army, and it caused great terror, not only from its general appearance, but by reason of the elephants, standing out especially conspicuously among the soldiers. They were of great size; head-armour and crests and towers placed upon their backs, and, in addition to the driver, four soldiers riding in each tower, added to their impressiveness. On the right of the phalangitae he stationed fifteen hundred Galatian infantry. [9] To these he added three thousand armoured cavalry — they call them cataphracti. In addition to these there was a squadron of about a thousand cavalry; they called it the agema; they were Medes, picked men, and cavalry from many races in the same region mingled with them. [10] Adjoining them a herd of sixteen elephants was posted in reserve. [11] On this side, the flank being advanced a little, was the royal bodyguard; they were called argyraspides from the character of their equipment; then the Dahae, mounted archers, to the number of twelve hundred; then the light infantry, three thousand in number, about equally divided between Cretans and Tralli; to them two thousand five hundred Mysian archers were added. The extremity of this flank consisted of four thousand mixed Cyrtians, slingers, and Elymaeans, archers. [12] On the left flank, next the phalangitae, were posted fifteen hundred Galatian infantry and two thousand Cappadocians similarly armed — they had been sent to the king by Ariarathes; then twenty-seven hundred auxiliaries mixed from all races, and three thousand armoured cavalry and one thousand other cavalry, the royal squadron, with lighter armour for themselves and their horses, but otherwise with equipment not unlike the rest; they were mostly Syrians mingled with Phrygians and Lydians. [13] In front of this cavalry were scythe-bearing chariots and camels of the breed called dromedaries. These were ridden by Arab archers carrying slender swords four cubits long, that they might be able to reach the enemy from so great a height. Then came another great crowd, corresponding to that on the right flank: first the Tarentini, then twenty-five hundred Galatian cavalry, next a thousand Neocretans and fifteen hundred Carians and Cilicians similarly equipped, and the same number of Tralli and four thousand “targeteers”: [14] these were Pisidians and Pamphylians and Lycians; then auxiliaries of the Cyrtians and Elymaeans equal to those stationed on the right flank, and sixteen elephants a short distance away.

— http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv.+37+40&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0165

As does Appian (minor differences):

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ὧδε μὲν δὴ διετετάχατο Ῥωμαῖοι, Ἀντιόχῳ δ᾽ ἦν μὲν ὁ στρατὸς ἅπας ἑπτακισμύριοι, καὶ τούτων τὸ κράτιστον ἦν ἡ φάλαγξ ἡ Μακεδόνων, ἄνδρες ἑξακισχίλιοι καὶ μύριοι, ἐς τὸν Ἀλεξάνδρου καὶ Φιλίππου τρόπον ἔτι κοσμούμενοι· ἵστη δ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἐν μέσῳ, διελὼν ἀνὰ χιλίους καὶ ἑξακοσίους ἐς δέκα μέρη, καὶ τούτων ἑκάστου μέρους ἦσαν ἐπὶ μὲν τοῦ μετώπου πεντήκοντα ἄνδρες, ἐς δὲ τὸ βάθος δύο καὶ τριάκοντα, ἐς δὲ τὰ πλευρὰ ἑκάστου μέρους ἐλέφαντες δύο καὶ εἴκοσιν. ἡ δ᾽ ὄψις ἦν τῆς μὲν φάλαγγος οἷα τείχους, τῶν δ᾽ ἐλεφάντων οἷον πύργων. τοιοῦτον μὲν ἦν τὸ πεζὸν Ἀντιόχῳ, ἱππεῖς δ᾽ ἑκατέρωθεν αὐτοῦ παρετετάχατο Γαλάται τε κατάφρακτοι καὶ τὸ λεγόμενον ἄγημα τῶν Μακεδόνων. εἰσὶ δὲ καὶ οἵδε ἱππεῖς ἐπίλεκτοι, καὶ παρ᾽ αὐτὸ ἄγημα λέγεται. τάδε μὲν ἔξ ἴσου τῆς φάλαγγος ἦν ἑκατέρωθεν· ἐπὶ δ᾽ αὐτοῖς τὰ κέρατα κατεῖχον ἐν μὲν δεξιᾷ ψιλοί τέ τινες καὶ ἕτεροι ἱππεῖς ἀργυράσπιδες καὶ ἱπποτοξόται διακόσιοι, τὸ δὲ λαιὸν Γαλατῶν τ᾽ ἔθνη, Τεκτοσάγαι τε καὶ Τρόκμοι καὶ Τολιστόβοιοι, καὶ Καππαδόκαι τινὲς οὓς ἔπεμψεν Ἀριαράθης, καὶ μιγάδες ἄλλοι ξένοι, κατάφρακτός τε ἵππος ἐπὶ τοῖσδε ἑτέρα, καὶ ἣν ἐκάλουν ἵππον ἑταιρικήν, ὡπλισμένη κούφως. ὧδε μὲν καὶ ὁ Ἀντίοχος ἐξέτασσεν. καὶ δοκεῖ τὴν ἐλπίδα λαβεῖν ἐν τοῖς ἱππεῦσιν, οὓς πολλοὺς ἔστησεν ἐπὶ τοῦ μετώπου, τὴν δὲ φάλαγγα πυκνὴν ἐς ὀλίγον συναγαγεῖν ἀπειροπολέμως, ᾗ δὴ καὶ μάλιστα ἔδει θαρρεῖν πάνυ ἠσκημένῃ. πολὺ δὲ καὶ ἄλλο πλῆθος ἦν λιθοβόλων τε καὶ τοξοτῶν καὶ ἀκοντιστῶν καὶ πελταστῶν, Φρυγῶν τε καὶ Λυκίων καὶ Παμφύλων καὶ Πισιδῶν Κρητῶν τε καὶ Τραλλιανῶν καὶ Κιλίκων ἐς τὸν Κρητῶν τρόπον ἐσκευασμένων. ἱπποτοξόται τε ἐπὶ τοῖσδε ἕτεροι, Δᾶαι καὶ Μυσοὶ καὶ Ἐλυμαῖοι καὶ Ἄραβες, οἳ καμήλους ὀξυτάτας ἐπικαθήμενοι τοξεύουσί τε εὐμαρῶς ἀφ᾽ ὑψηλοῦ, καὶ μαχαίραις, ὅτε πλησιάζοιεν, ἐπιμήκεσι καὶ στεναῖς χρῶνται. δρεπανηφόρα τε ἅρματα ἐν τῷ μεταιχμίῳ, προπολεμεῖν τοῦ μετώπου, ἐτετάχατο· καὶ εἴρητο αὐτοῖς μετὰ τὴν πρώτην πεῖραν ὑποχωρεῖν.

— http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=App.+Syr.+6+32&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0229

The total force of Antiochus was 70,000 and the strongest of these was the Macedonian phalanx of 16,000 men, still arrayed after the fashion of Alexander and Philip. These were placed in the centre, divided into ten sections of 1600 men each, with fifty men in the front line of each section and thirty-two deep. On the flanks of each section were twenty-two elephants. The appearance of the phalanx was like that of a wall, of which the elephants were the towers. Such was the arrangement of the infantry of Antiochus. His horse were stationed on either wing, consisting of the mail-clad Galatians and the Macedonian corps called the Agema, so named because they were picked horsemen. An equal number of these were stationed on either side of the phalanx. Besides these the right wing had certain light-armed troops, and other horsemen with silver shields, and 200 mounted archers. On the left were the Galatian bands of the Tectosagi, the Trocmi, the Tolistoboii, and certain Cappadocians furnished by King Ariarthes, and a mingling of other tribes. There was another body of horse, mail-clad but light-armed, called the Companion cavalry. In this way Antiochus drew up his forces. He seems to have placed most reliance on his cavalry, whom he stationed in large numbers on his front. The serried phalanx, in which he should have placed most confidence, on account of its high state of discipline, was crowded together unskilfully in a narrow space. Besides the forces enumerated there was a great multitude of slingers, archers, javelin throwers, and peltasts from Phrygia, Lycia, Pamphylia, Pisidia, Crete, Tralles, and Cilicia, armed after the Cretan fashion. There were also other mounted archers from the Dahae, Mysia, Elymaïs, and Arabia, riding on swift camels, who shot arrows with dexterity from their high position, and used very long thin knives when they came to close combat. Antiochus also placed scythe-bearing chariots in the space between the armies to begin the battle, with orders to retire after the first onset.

— http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=App.+Syr.+6+32&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230

Polybius also describes a parade organized by Antiochus IV (reign 175–164 BC):

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[25.1] ὁ δ᾽ αὐτὸς οὗτος βασιλεὺς ἀκούσας τοὺς ἐν τῇ Μακεδονίᾳ συντετελεσμένους ἀγῶνας ὑπὸ Αἰμιλίου Παύλου τοῦ Ῥωμαίων στρατηγοῦ, βουλόμενος τῇ μεγαλοδωρίᾳ ὑπερᾶραι τὸν Παῦλον ἐξέπεμψε πρέσβεις καὶ θεωροὺς εἰς τὰς πόλεις καταγγελοῦντας τοὺς ἐσομένους ἀγῶνας ὑπ᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ Δάφνης, ὡς πολλὴν γενέσθαι τῶν Ἑλλήνων σπουδὴν εἰς τὴν ὡς αὐτὸν ἄφιξιν. [2] ἀρχὴν δ᾽ ἐποιήσατο τῆς πανηγύρεως τὴν πομπείαν οὕτως ἐπιτελεσθεῖσαν. [3] καθηγοῦντό τινες Ῥωμαϊκὸν ἔχοντες καθοπλισμὸν ἐν θώραξιν ἁλυσιδωτοῖς, ἄνδρες ἀκμάζοντες ταῖς ἡλικίαις πεντακισχίλιοι: μεθ᾽ οὓς Μυσοὶ πεντακισχίλιοι. [4] συνεχεῖς δ᾽ ἦσαν Κίλικες εἰς τὸν τῶν εὐζώνων τρόπον καθωπλισμένοι τρισχίλιοι, χρυσοῦς ἔχοντες στεφάνους. [5] ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις Θρᾷκες τρισχίλιοι καὶ Γαλάται πεντακισχίλιοι. τούτοις ἐπέβαλλον Μακεδόνες δισμύριοι καὶ χαλκάσπιδες πεντακισχίλιοι, ἄλλοι δὲ ἀργυράσπιδες, οἷς ἐπηκολούθει μονομάχων ζεύγη διακόσια τετταράκοντα. [6] τούτων κατόπιν ἦσαν ἱππεῖς Νισαῖοι μὲν χίλιοι πολιτικοὶ δὲ τρισχίλιοι, ὧν οἱ μὲν πλείους ἦσαν χρυσοφάλαροι καὶ χρυσοστέφανοι, οἱ δ᾽ ἄλλοι ἀργυροφάλαροι. [7] μετὰ δὲ τούτους ἦσαν οἱ λεγόμενοι Ἑταῖροι ἱππεῖς: οὗτοι δὲ ἦσαν εἰς χιλίους, πάντες χρυσοφάλαροι. τούτοις συνεχὲς ἦν τὸ τῶν φίλων σύνταγμα, [8] ἴσον καὶ κατὰ τὸ πλῆθος καὶ κατὰ τὸν κόσμον. ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις ἐπίλεκτοι χίλιοι, οἷς ἐπηκολούθει τὸ καλούμενον ἄγημα, κράτιστον εἶναι δοκοῦν σύστημα τῶν ἱππέων, [9] περὶ χιλίους. τελευταία δ᾽ ἦν ἡ κατάφρακτος ἵππος, οἰκείως τῇ προσηγορίᾳ τῶν ἵππων καὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν ἐσκεπασμένων τοῖς ὅπλοις: ἦσαν δὲ καὶ αὐτοὶ χίλιοι καὶ πεντακόσιοι. [10] πάντες δ᾽ οἱ προειρημένοι εἶχον πορφυρᾶς ἐφαπτίδας, πολλοὶ δὲ καὶ διαχρύσους καὶ ζῳωτάς. [11] ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις ἕξιππα μὲν ἦν ἑκατόν, τέθριππα δὲ τετταράκοντα, ἔπειτα ἐλεφάντων ἅρμα καὶ συνωρίς. καθ᾽ ἕνα δὲ εἵποντο ἐλέφαντες διεσκευασμένοι τριάκοντα καὶ ἕξ.

 — http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb.+30.25&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0233

[25.1] This same king when he heard of the games celebrated in Macedonia by Aemilius Paullus the Roman general, ambitious of surpassing Paullus in magnificence sent out embassies and sacred missions to the towns to announce the games he was about to give at Daphne, so that people in Greece were very eager to visit Antioch then. [2] The festival opened with a procession composed as follows: [3] It was headed by five thousand men in the prime of life armed after the Roman fashion and wearing breastplates of chain-armour. Next came five thousand Mysians, [4] and immediately behind them three thousand Cilicians armed in the manner of light infantry, wearing gold crowns. [5] Next came three thousand Thracians and five thousand Gauls. They were followed by twenty thousand Macedonians of whom ten thousand bore golden shields, five thousand brazen shields and the rest silver shields. [6] Next marched two hundred and fifty pairs of gladiators, and behind them a thousand horsemen from Nisa and three thousand from Antioch itself, most of whom had crowns and trappings of gold and the rest trappings of silver. [7] Next to these came the so‑called "companion cavalry," numbering about a thousand, all with gold trappings, and next the regiment of "royal friends" [8] of equal number and similarly accoutred; next a thousand picked horse followed by the so‑called "agema", supposed to be the crack cavalry corps, [9] numbering about a thousand. Last of all marched the "cataphract" or mailed horse, the horses and men being armed in complete mail, as the name indicated. [10] All the above wore purple surcoats in many cases embroidered with gold and heraldic designs. [11] Next came a hundred chariots drawn by six horses and forty drawn by four horses, and then a chariot drawn by four elephants and another drawn by a pair, and finally thirty-six elephants in single file with their housings.

 — http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/30*.html

Currently players have to choose between a traditional army (Silver Shield Pikeman and Scythed Chariot) and a reformed army (Romanized Heavy Swordsman and Seleucid Cataphract). However, the sources make it clear that heavy cavalry was used in combination with pikemen and chariots, so this choice is an artificial dichotomy.

Furthermore, the cataphracts in question are apparently Galatians (Celts who sacked Delphi and settled around Ankara). Perhaps something for a mini-faction?

[more to follow later]

Edited May 26, 2019 by Nescio
Daphne parade

[av93]

  On 25/05/2019 at 9:36 PM, Nescio said:

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ὧδε μὲν δὴ διετετάχατο Ῥωμαῖοι, Ἀντιόχῳ δ᾽ ἦν μὲν ὁ στρατὸς ἅπας ἑπτακισμύριοι, καὶ τούτων τὸ κράτιστον ἦν ἡ φάλαγξ ἡ Μακεδόνων, ἄνδρες ἑξακισχίλιοι καὶ μύριοι, ἐς τὸν Ἀλεξάνδρου καὶ Φιλίππου τρόπον ἔτι κοσμούμενοι· ἵστη δ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἐν μέσῳ, διελὼν ἀνὰ χιλίους καὶ ἑξακοσίους ἐς δέκα μέρη, καὶ τούτων ἑκάστου μέρους ἦσαν ἐπὶ μὲν τοῦ μετώπου πεντήκοντα ἄνδρες, ἐς δὲ τὸ βάθος δύο καὶ τριάκοντα, ἐς δὲ τὰ πλευρὰ ἑκάστου μέρους ἐλέφαντες δύο καὶ εἴκοσιν. ἡ δ᾽ ὄψις ἦν τῆς μὲν φάλαγγος οἷα τείχους, τῶν δ᾽ ἐλεφάντων οἷον πύργων. τοιοῦτον μὲν ἦν τὸ πεζὸν Ἀντιόχῳ, ἱππεῖς δ᾽ ἑκατέρωθεν αὐτοῦ παρετετάχατο Γαλάται τε κατάφρακτοι καὶ τὸ λεγόμενον ἄγημα τῶν Μακεδόνων. εἰσὶ δὲ καὶ οἵδε ἱππεῖς ἐπίλεκτοι, καὶ παρ᾽ αὐτὸ ἄγημα λέγεται. τάδε μὲν ἔξ ἴσου τῆς φάλαγγος ἦν ἑκατέρωθεν· ἐπὶ δ᾽ αὐτοῖς τὰ κέρατα κατεῖχον ἐν μὲν δεξιᾷ ψιλοί τέ τινες καὶ ἕτεροι ἱππεῖς ἀργυράσπιδες καὶ ἱπποτοξόται διακόσιοι, τὸ δὲ λαιὸν Γαλατῶν τ᾽ ἔθνη, Τεκτοσάγαι τε καὶ Τρόκμοι καὶ Τολιστόβοιοι, καὶ Καππαδόκαι τινὲς οὓς ἔπεμψεν Ἀριαράθης, καὶ μιγάδες ἄλλοι ξένοι, κατάφρακτός τε ἵππος ἐπὶ τοῖσδε ἑτέρα, καὶ ἣν ἐκάλουν ἵππον ἑταιρικήν, ὡπλισμένη κούφως. ὧδε μὲν καὶ ὁ Ἀντίοχος ἐξέτασσεν. καὶ δοκεῖ τὴν ἐλπίδα λαβεῖν ἐν τοῖς ἱππεῦσιν, οὓς πολλοὺς ἔστησεν ἐπὶ τοῦ μετώπου, τὴν δὲ φάλαγγα πυκνὴν ἐς ὀλίγον συναγαγεῖν ἀπειροπολέμως, ᾗ δὴ καὶ μάλιστα ἔδει θαρρεῖν πάνυ ἠσκημένῃ. πολὺ δὲ καὶ ἄλλο πλῆθος ἦν λιθοβόλων τε καὶ τοξοτῶν καὶ ἀκοντιστῶν καὶ πελταστῶν, Φρυγῶν τε καὶ Λυκίων καὶ Παμφύλων καὶ Πισιδῶν Κρητῶν τε καὶ Τραλλιανῶν καὶ Κιλίκων ἐς τὸν Κρητῶν τρόπον ἐσκευασμένων. ἱπποτοξόται τε ἐπὶ τοῖσδε ἕτεροι, Δᾶαι καὶ Μυσοὶ καὶ Ἐλυμαῖοι καὶ Ἄραβες, οἳ καμήλους ὀξυτάτας ἐπικαθήμενοι τοξεύουσί τε εὐμαρῶς ἀφ᾽ ὑψηλοῦ, καὶ μαχαίραις, ὅτε πλησιάζοιεν, ἐπιμήκεσι καὶ στεναῖς χρῶνται. δρεπανηφόρα τε ἅρματα ἐν τῷ μεταιχμίῳ, προπολεμεῖν τοῦ μετώπου, ἐτετάχατο· καὶ εἴρητο αὐτοῖς μετὰ τὴν πρώτην πεῖραν ὑποχωρεῖν.
 — http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=App.+Syr.+6+32&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0229

The total force of Antiochus was 70,000 and the strongest of these was the Macedonian phalanx of 16,000 men, still arrayed after the fashion of Alexander and Philip. These were placed in the centre, divided into ten sections of 1600 men each, with fifty men in the front line of each section and thirty-two deep. On the flanks of each section were twenty-two elephants. The appearance of the phalanx was like that of a wall, of which the elephants were the towers. Such was the arrangement of the infantry of Antiochus. His horse were stationed on either wing, consisting of the mail-clad Galatians and the Macedonian corps called the Agema, so named because they were picked horsemen. An equal number of these were stationed on either side of the phalanx. Besides these the right wing had certain light-armed troops, and other horsemen with silver shields, and 200 mounted archers. On the left were the Galatian bands of the Tectosagi, the Trocmi, the Tolistoboii, and certain Cappadocians furnished by King Ariarthes, and a mingling of other tribes. There was another body of horse, mail-clad but light-armed, called the Companion cavalry. In this way Antiochus drew up his forces. He seems to have placed most reliance on his cavalry, whom he stationed in large numbers on his front. The serried phalanx, in which he should have placed most confidence, on account of its high state of discipline, was crowded together unskilfully in a narrow space. Besides the forces enumerated there was a great multitude of slingers, archers, javelin throwers, and peltasts from Phrygia, Lycia, Pamphylia, Pisidia, Crete, Tralles, and Cilicia, armed after the Cretan fashion. There were also other mounted archers from the Dahae, Mysia, Elymaïs, and Arabia, riding on swift camels, who shot arrows with dexterity from their high position, and used very long thin knives when they came to close combat. Antiochus also placed scythe-bearing chariots in the space between the armies to begin the battle, with orders to retire after the first onset.
 — http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=App.+Syr.+6+32&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230

Currently players have to choose between a traditional army (Silver Shield Pikeman and Scythed Chariot) and a reformed army (Romanized Heavy Swordsman and Seleucid Cataphract). However, the sources make it clear that heavy cavalry was used in combination with pikemen and chariots, so this choice is an artificial dichotomy.

 

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This decision was made because in the original design every civilization have only 2 champions. Mauryians had 4 as a special bonus, but in the design process of Seleucids, they were make 4 champs, and later the tech was made as an special feature to follow the design.

As you can see, some civs have gotten more than 2 champs

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 25/05/2019 at 11:38 PM, av93 said:

As you can see, some civs have gotten more than 2 champs

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The Royal Stoa needs to go.

[Nescio]

  On 25/05/2019 at 11:38 PM, av93 said:

This decision was made because in the original design every civilization have only 2 champions. Mauryians had 4 as a special bonus, but in the design process of Seleucids, they were make 4 champs, and later the tech was made as an special feature to follow the design.

As you can see, some civs have gotten more than 2 champs 

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Yes, I see currently:

• Britons, Iberians, Macedonians, Romans: 2
• Carthaginians, Gauls, Ptolemies, Seleucids: 3
• Spartans: 4
• Athenians, Mauryas: 4+1
• Kushites, Persians: 5

  On 26/05/2019 at 12:47 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Royal Stoa needs to go.

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Yes, I agree; not really relevant for the Seleucids, though.

 

Something else, the Seleucids currently have a quinquereme (which uses the Ptolemaic actor); I think it should be removed (and the Macedonians should get one). In Hellenistic times Carthage, Rome, Macedon, Rhodes, and the Ptolemies were the naval powers, but not the Seleucids.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 26/05/2019 at 9:17 AM, Nescio said:

Yes, I see currently:

• Britons, Iberians, Macedonians, Romans: 2
• Carthaginians, Gauls, Ptolemies, Seleucids: 3
• Spartans: 4
• Athenians, Mauryas: 4+1
• Kushites, Persians: 5

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Originally, war elephants were a replacement for battering rams, so they wouldn't count as Champions. That's all changed though. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 26/05/2019 at 9:17 AM, Nescio said:

Something else, the Seleucids currently have a quinquereme (which uses the Ptolemaic actor); I think it should be removed (and the Macedonians should get one). In Hellenistic times Carthage, Rome, Macedon, Rhodes, and the Ptolemies were the naval powers, but not the Seleucids.

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Certainly, the Seleucids had quinqueremes though (or the technology to build them). You could just put a limit on them, or unlock, or make them more expensive.

[Nescio]

  On 26/05/2019 at 10:03 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Originally, war elephants were a replacement for battering rams, so they wouldn't count as Champions. That's all changed though. 

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That something might have seemed a good idea in the past doesn't mean it should be set in stone; ideas can evolve. I'm posting here to have a critical look at the Seleucid unit roster and discuss whether it still makes sense in the current situation.

  On 26/05/2019 at 10:05 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

(or the technology to build them)

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As did Athens and Sparta. That doesn't mean they should have them, though.

[Genava55]

Seleucids during the reign of Antiochus III relied on the Phoenician navy, so indeed this is not exactly the same situation than the other Greeks and Hellenes building their own ships and less dependent to one region. 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I think that the issue with the Royal Stoa is first of all, why is it royal?  That makes it only refer to one of many stoas built.  Next, it should be redesigned if it will still play a role in the game.  As far as I am aware, there are two functions the stoa could serve, commercial and academic, possibly both.  To outline my rationale, most of the time these were used for trading, and the Stoic school of philosophy was even named after this structure.  I could see it having a purpose of being used to research various technologies based on the aforementioned points, but if it seems like just one more duplicity, then I won't miss its presence in the game.  

As a definite point, the Spartans shouldn't have the stoa.  They resented trade, and as far as I am aware, they never built a single one.  

[av93]

The problem is that maybe all civs should be review and have some vision behind

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 26/05/2019 at 10:11 AM, Nescio said:

That something might have seemed a good idea in the past doesn't mean it should be set in stone; ideas can evolve. I'm posting here to have a critical look at the Seleucid unit roster and discuss whether it still makes sense in the current situation.

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Indeed. I was simply supplying context.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm very convincing to use phase progress to customize the tech tree and units specially to face multiple choice factions, where are several units like champions , heroes...etc.

Is suggested to new rts based in history

  Quote

Maybe the new feature is a commander tree type of tech system like from COH2, based off from mythology as you progress in ages, were you could choose from multiple different types generals to customize each nation in various different ways… just a thought

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https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/aoe4-likely-to-have-been-in-production-at-least-since-sep-2016-as-suggested-by-former-relic-dev-cv/38093

 

instead an artificial dichotomy of course. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Phalanx]

Man, this whole discussion brings me back ;P I remember I tried to make a reformed Seleucid roster a few years ago, but most of the new units I suggested went into the Ptolemaic roster XD.  

  On 25/05/2019 at 9:36 PM, Nescio said:

Currently players have to choose between a traditional army (Silver Shield Pikeman and Scythed Chariot) and a reformed army (Romanized Heavy Swordsman and Seleucid Cataphract). However, the sources make it clear that heavy cavalry was used in combination with pikemen and chariots, so this choice is an artificial dichotomy.

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This. I agree 2e4% !   I want to use Silver Shield Pikes with Kataphracts. But, I do like the idea of choosing the Silver Shield Swords over the Silver Shield Pikes, because that was a choice that the Seleucids actually made, and it creates an interesting dynamic and slight uncertainty playing against the Seleucids.

 

  On 26/05/2019 at 1:55 PM, av93 said:

The problem is that maybe all civs should be review and have some vision behind

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Now, quote me if I'm wrong, but the verrrry basic vision behind the Seleucids is that they are a cavalry-based faction.  This is in conjunction with the strength of their main rival, the Ptolemaics, who are infantry based.  This comparison is made on the battle of Raphia I believe, where Ptolemaic infantry (miraculously) beat the Seleucid infantry, but the Seleucid cavalry was sooo effective in that fight, that Raphia was studied by cavalry commanders up into the Napoleonic Wars.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 27/05/2019 at 10:00 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

I'm very convincing to use phase progress to customize the tech tree and units specially to face multiple choice factions, where are several units like champions , heroes...etc.

Is suggested to new rts based in history

 

https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/aoe4-likely-to-have-been-in-production-at-least-since-sep-2016-as-suggested-by-former-relic-dev-cv/38093

 

instead an artificial dichotomy of course. 

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What if... what if... at the start of the match, similar to Hyrule Conquest, you choose a hero to lead your civ. That hero gives you different choices at each phase up.

[Stan`]

Can phase up be paired techs ?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 12/06/2019 at 5:28 PM, Stan` said:

Can phase up be paired techs ?

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It's possible, but incredibly mundane. Don't like extra nice UI elements?

[Genava55]

  On 12/06/2019 at 5:23 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

What if... what if... at the start of the match, similar to Hyrule Conquest, you choose a hero to lead your civ. That hero gives you different choices at each phase up.

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I like the idea. This gives more depth to strategy in general. 

It could be also something unlocked through the choice of a hero in the third phase. 

[Stan`]

  On 12/06/2019 at 5:35 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It's possible, but incredibly mundane. Don't like extra nice UI elements?

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I'm actually totally for it.  

[Rolf Dew]

I agree, choosing a hero at the start idea, will definitely be a nice gameplay addition

[Phalanx]

It would be pretty cool!  Just how much of difference would be between the 3 heroes versions of the Seleucids?  Basically, would only different champions and tech be available, or would we need to come up with some more citizen soldiers as well?

[Lion.Kanzen]

  On 13/06/2019 at 12:45 PM, Phalanx said:

 more citizen soldiers as well?

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yes, that is one advantages of that system. custom the army.

[Phalanx]

mmmmm. I love me some AOM.  Also, this system reminds me of Anlgo-American states and Balkan states in the AOE III MOD Wars of Liberty. They implemented a similar system.

[Lion.Kanzen]

They stolen my anchor. In the first row.

[Phalanx]

So what would the different bonuses/units/techs from each Hero? And would this system be implemented for just the Seleucids, or all factions?