Ideas for the next alpha... uh, I mean beta - and spicing up the game's content

[Sturm]

Currently, 0 A.D. features 14 playable civilizations: Athenians, Britons, Carthaginians, Gauls, Han, Iberians, Kushites, Macedonians, Mauryas, Persians, Ptolemies, Republican Romans, Seleucids, and Spartans. Of these, nine are European (Athenians, Britons, Carthaginians, Gauls, Iberians, Macedonians, Republican Romans, Seleucids, and Spartans), two are Asian (Han and Mauryas), and two are African (Kushites and Ptolemies). At this time, the game does not include any American civilizations.

It is long overdue for 0 A.D. to introduce at least one civilization from the Americas. The game does a fantastic job of representing ancient cultures across Europe, Asia, and Africa, but it lacks a crucial element of world history: the civilizations that thrived in the Americas during antiquity. The inclusion of an American civilization would not only add diversity to the game but also introduce unique gameplay mechanics and architectural styles inspired by pre-Columbian societies.

Several civilizations from the Americas around the 1st century could be great candidates for 0 A.D.. The Maya had already begun forming city-states with impressive architecture and sophisticated governance. The Zapotecs of Monte Albán in present-day Mexico had a thriving society with writing, trade networks, and military advancements. The Moche civilization of Peru was developing large ceremonial centers and a warrior-based society. Any of these could offer a fresh and historically rich addition to the game, making the world of 0 A.D. even more immersive and representative of ancient global civilizations.

[Sturm]

And more specifically - why not start with Brazil?

When people think of ancient civilizations, they often picture grand stone cities and vast armies, and Brazilian indigenous groups around the 1st century don’t immediately come to mind. But here’s the thing: there were thriving, complex societies in the region, and some of them would make fantastic additions to the game. Take the Marajoara culture, for example. These people lived on Marajó Island and were anything but primitive. They built organized settlements, developed sophisticated agriculture, and produced some of the most intricate pottery in the pre-Columbian Americas. Imagine the stunning visual designs that could come from their artistic legacy!

Another great candidate would be the Santarém culture (also known as the Tapajó people), who lived at the confluence of the Amazon and Tapajós rivers. They created elaborate ceramic art, had fortified villages, and developed complex social structures. And if you’re looking for a warrior society, the Tupi-Guarani peoples were already expanding across Brazil at the time, building palisaded villages and engaging in fierce territorial conflicts - perfect for a strategy game.

Of course, the biggest challenge would be the lack of written records from these civilizations. But that’s where archaeology, anthropology, and even collaboration with indigenous communities could come in. There’s enough historical and material evidence to create a compelling and respectful interpretation of these societies, just like you’ve done with others in 0 A.D..

[Stan`]

The Zapotecs have already a complete mod IIRC.

[phosit]

Likely there will be another european civ : https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/7104

[Lopess]

16 hours ago, Sturm said:

And more specifically - why not start with Brazil?

When people think of ancient civilizations, they often picture grand stone cities and vast armies, and Brazilian indigenous groups around the 1st century don’t immediately come to mind. But here’s the thing: there were thriving, complex societies in the region, and some of them would make fantastic additions to the game. Take the Marajoara culture, for example. These people lived on Marajó Island and were anything but primitive. They built organized settlements, developed sophisticated agriculture, and produced some of the most intricate pottery in the pre-Columbian Americas. Imagine the stunning visual designs that could come from their artistic legacy!

Another great candidate would be the Santarém culture (also known as the Tapajó people), who lived at the confluence of the Amazon and Tapajós rivers. They created elaborate ceramic art, had fortified villages, and developed complex social structures. And if you’re looking for a warrior society, the Tupi-Guarani peoples were already expanding across Brazil at the time, building palisaded villages and engaging in fierce territorial conflicts - perfect for a strategy game.

Of course, the biggest challenge would be the lack of written records from these civilizations. But that’s where archaeology, anthropology, and even collaboration with indigenous communities could come in. There’s enough historical and material evidence to create a compelling and respectful interpretation of these societies, just like you’ve done with others in 0 A.D..

Temos um mod muito ambicioso porém ainda em sua fase inicial:

 

[Arup]

15 hours ago, phosit said:

Likely there will be another european civ : https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/7104

why is 0ad so eurocentric 

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Arup said:

why is 0ad so eurocentric 

Kushites, Mauryans, Han Chineses are Europeans now?

[Genava55]

On 05/02/2025 at 9:46 AM, Sturm said:

It is long overdue for 0 A.D. to introduce at least one civilization from the Americas. The game does a fantastic job of representing ancient cultures across Europe, Asia, and Africa, but it lacks a crucial element of world history: the civilizations that thrived in the Americas during antiquity. The inclusion of an American civilization would not only add diversity to the game but also introduce unique gameplay mechanics and architectural styles inspired by pre-Columbian societies.

Could you name three historical figures from any pre-columbian civilizations who lived during the time-frame 500 BC to 100 AD?

[Stan`]

We might add a workaround for this which could be interesting if we know the hierarchical structures, we could add a chief, high priest and maybe some intermediary level. Those would work as heroes. Unlike other civs they wouldn't have a 1 time limit (only max 1 alive)

Bonus points if we could have dynamic specific name matching how they named people back then.

[Beppe]

7 hours ago, Arup said:

why is 0ad so eurocentric 

Civilizational development was higher by a large margin in certain regions of the word (Parts of Europe, North Africa, Middle East and East Asia) during the game's time frame and it matches that reality

There are plenty of peoples in the same region that could still be added without nonsensical balancing, but yet "Nooooo, you should prioritize those guys with nice pottery in the Amazon [and somehow come up with equivalents for cavalry, ironworking, fortifications, etc] or else you are eurocentric!"  

If a game looks for historical accuracy, it has to be representative of the situation at the time, not distort it to please people's wishful thinking or minimize their self-pity

Good lord, South Americans have to get over that delusion that other people are deliberately trying to downplay them. We have digged our own victimization holes

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, Stan` said:

We might add a workaround for this which could be interesting if we know the hierarchical structures, we could add a chief, high priest and maybe some intermediary level. Those would work as heroes. Unlike other civs they wouldn't have a 1 time limit (only max 1 alive)

Of course it is an option.

We could also toss out the awful idea of separating the two time periods into two games (or expansions/mods/whatever Empires Ascendants and Empires Besieged are), that way we can include the Zapotecs more easily from the mod. What's more, as the team has decided to follow the path of eternal releases, freeing itself from explicit milestones (alpha, beta...), this division clearly no longer makes sense.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I think it would be fine to employ legends and oral histories as hero inspirations.

[Stan`]

51 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

We could also toss out the awful idea of separating the two time periods into two games (or expansions/mods/whatever Empires Ascendants and Empires Besieged are), that way we can include the Zapotecs more easily from the mod. What's more, as the team has decided to follow the path of eternal releases, freeing itself from explicit milestones (alpha, beta...), this division clearly no longer makes sense.

I guess this deservers a whole lot bigger discussion but why would it make the Zapotecs easier to include?

Their inclusion is not dictated by the time frame but rather the team's reluctance to add new civs in general as it adds a significant load on balancing, download size, and scrutiny. Mods are usually perfect until they need to get into the game then every body starts dunking on them

To add to this creating empires besieged is just creating a new repo and starting dumping assets we don't have yet in it. Then it would be available through mod.io as any other mod.

[Genava55]

50 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think it would be fine to employ legends and oral histories as hero inspirations.

Welcome to Achilles, Cúchulainn and Beowulf ?

40 minutes ago, Stan` said:

why would it make the Zapotecs easier to include?

Because most of the evidence comes from the Monte Albán III, a phase which is labelled the "Golden Age" or the Classical period of the Zapotecs.

Most of the previous buildings have been rebuilt several times. This is similar to Rome, almost all of the ancient Roman buildings still standing are from the imperial period.

Edited February 6 by Genava55

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 minute ago, Genava55 said:

49 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think it would be fine to employ legends and oral histories as hero inspirations.

Welcome to Achilles, Cúchulainn and Beowulf ?

no. Thats not what I meant.

In American cultures there is often little or no writing. So using these as inspiration makes sense.

[Genava55]

Just now, real_tabasco_sauce said:

no. Thats not what I meant.

In American cultures there is often little or no writing. So using these as inspiration makes sense.

Yes I understand your idea. But oral tradition is generally related to myths and folklore. Achilles, Cúchulainn and Beowulf were characters from oral traditions until someone wrote the stories down. And there is a long chronological distance between the known legends and the ancient people.

[ShadowOfHassen]

One of my favorite authors Brandon Sanderson has a rule regarding world building its "Expand what you already have before you add something new."

I think this rule applies with 0 A.D. as well. I don't think it's very fair to our devs to expect research, design, new civilizations, even cool ones when the current civs are still not finished. Even if the civs are perfectly balanced and WFG didn't want to make any other changes, I don't think it'd be fair for them to not have some at least one campaign highlighting a historical event they participated in. (Or cool additional in game information...)

Also, there's more to a game than just adding civs-- and I don't think we should put any expectations on people. Everyone is volunteers, if people want to make and mantain a new civ that's good for them-- but the WFG team needs to feel free to make whatever they want.

8 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Yes I understand your idea. But oral tradition is generally related to myths and folklore. Achilles, Cúchulainn and Beowulf were characters from oral traditions until someone wrote the stories down. And there is a long chronological distance between the known legends and the ancient people.

I agree-- 0 A.D. at least from my point of view is supposed to have civs firmly grounded in history. We shouldn't change that now. Beowulf would be cool though, but only if I can train Grendles too.

 

Just as a side note-- with working on the encyclopedia, I have an idea on how hard it is to find information to something, even though I knew exactly what I'm looking for. Writing for the Han dynasty was hard-- and when I tried to find things on the Kush it was difficult too. I can only imagine how hard it would to get information for civilizations without widely available primary sources, even as a research project that would give me nightmares-- even more if I don't have money to purchase archeological journals.

Edited February 7 by ShadowOfHassen

[ShadowOfHassen]

10 hours ago, Genava55 said:

We could also toss out the awful idea of separating the two time periods into two games (or expansions/mods/whatever Empires Ascendants and Empires Besieged are), that way we can include the Zapotecs more easily from the mod. What's more, as the team has decided to follow the path of eternal releases, freeing itself from explicit milestones (alpha, beta...), this division clearly no longer makes sense.

I actually kind of like that idea still-- ideas like that keep us from feature creep

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

20 hours ago, Arup said:

why is 0ad so eurocentric 

 

18 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Kushites, Mauryans, Han Chineses are Europeans now?

Persians, Ptolemies, Carthaginians, too. And possibly the nomad civs a couple releases from now: Scythians, Xiongnu. 

[Lech]

Seleucid are Asian, Carthage is African. So you are wrong even in your original post.

 

The game need new civilizations, namely germanic tribes and scythians.

[Classic-Burger]

On 06/02/2025 at 1:24 AM, Arup said:

why is 0ad so eurocentric 

Have you played with the mods?

In any case it would be Greco-centric or Hellenic-centric.

By the number of Greek factions.