Champion cavalry improvements

[AIEND]

9小时前，Thecj说：

我同意。

但是我相信该解决方案应该降低针对步兵和工人/妇女的长矛骑兵的有效性，而不是降低其对骑兵的有效性吗？

然后，您将不得不使用其他类型的骑兵袭击您的敌人。

I think that the reason why the spear cavalry should not restrain other cavalry is to solve the problem that some civilizations have champion spear cavalry, while other civilizations may not even have CS spear cavalry, so the champion spear cavalry can counterattack the sword cavalry or axe cavalry of these civilizations, making the battle more one-sided.
So on the one hand, I think that the champion spear cavalry should be limited to production in the fortress, so that its number can be limited. At the same time, the champion spear cavalry cannot counterattack the CS spear cavalry or sword cavalry and axe cavalry, so that other players can use a large number of CS melee cavalry to stop the champion spear cavalry, instead of being unilaterally slaughtered by the champion spear cavalry.
I don’t think the CS spear cavalry in A27 is too strong, because they have been weakened in previous versions of the game. But if you want to further weaken the spear cavalry (whether CS or champion), you should not continue to increase the counter multiplier of the spearmen against the spear cavalry, because the spear cavalry has a mobility advantage. As long as the spearmen can’t catch up with the spear cavalry, this counterattack ability is invalid, so my suggestion is to reduce the counter multiplier of the spear cavalry against the spearmen and swordmen (considering that they all have shields). The spear cavalry should only cause 75% damage to the spearmen and swordmen.
In this way, no matter from which direction and when the spear cavalry chooses to attack the melee infantry, they cannot cause a large number of casualties to the melee infantry in a short period of time and then break away. The spear cavalry must spend more time fighting with the melee infantry to cause enough casualties, and a long battle means that the spear cavalry itself will be killed by the spearmen. Therefore, if the spear cavalry wants to reduce losses and choose to break away from the target in one blow, they can only attack those range infantry that lack cover, and the existing square formation that wraps the range infantry in the melee infantry will be more valuable.

[Seleucids]

A video demonstration of the disproportionate OPness of champion spear cav:

Spearmen are intended to be counter cavalry effectively with its 3x bonus, yet the champion cavalry kills regular infantry spearman with 205 remaining health. This is disproportionately OP. Its also defeated a Persian immortal (a champion unit that has hard counter against cavalry) with 57 Hp left. Even matched against the strongest infantry spear units of 0AD, the Spartan Olympic Hoplite and Macedonian shield bearer, the cavalry unit inflicted severe injury before dying. Combined with the mobility and its affordable cost in late game, this unit is disastrously OP.

 

Solutions:

• Reduce its damage to a sensible level so that it cannot kill a spearman in 5 hits. 
• Decrease armour value
• Limit the spam - either only allow them to be produced from special buildings or raise their price to unaffordable levels. 
• Give some counter units to every civ. 

 

Leif has implemented features in his Historical mod to limit the abusive spam of this unit, which is great.  I think we should have some limitations in base game as well. The training champions from fortress mechanism of A23 was good. 

Edited March 1 by Seleucids

[Grautvornix]

Somewhat related - I'd be interested in discussing countering elephants ...

[Emacz]

3 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

Somewhat related - I'd be interested in discussing countering elephants ...

how so? give me some ideas

[real_tabasco_sauce]

 

19 hours ago, Seleucids said:

A video demonstration of the disproportionate OPness of champion spear cav:

Well, you are using gaul champcav, which have 10% more damage than regular champcav. Also, regular CS spearmen benefit from ranking up, so involving more units would give a more realistic picture of the situation. Lastly, you should keep in mind that champ cav cost more than 3x the resources of spearmen, so it is justified that they should survive a 1 to 1 match with spearmen. Its a resource counter, but obviously there's more to the situation since we have citizen soldiers.

A good player can avoid spearmen extremely well, and in that case, you still have half your economy chasing cavalry while your enemy can have 100+ units on eco. Someone with champ cav and skirm cav can almost always choose their fights, so if there are too many spearmen coming, they go to something weaker. So I think the mobility factor is heavily underrated.

[LetswaveaBook]

The concept of a champion cavalry (with 1 population) is somewhat problematic.

(1) If it can't hold up for its value in a fight (in the sense of beat a unit that is 30% of its cost), it is just a mobility gimmick.

(2) However if it is fairly competent at dealing with 30% cost units, then the game is decided by getting enough recources to build a more expensive army.

This seems an unfixable design to me.

Edited March 2 by LetswaveaBook

[real_tabasco_sauce]

With the cavalry speed tech lumped in, skirm cav are 57% faster than skirmishers, and spear cav are 210% faster than spearmen.

This basically puts them on another planet in terms of mobility. I don't think they need to be that much faster than infantry. However, by tinkering with melee infantry speed, we may alleviate some of the problem.

[Grautvornix]

6 hours ago, Emacz said:

how so? give me some ideas

Just some thoughts: Bolt shooters might be a good counter, but they are too slow. So, should heavy spear cavalry be better or pikemen? Somehow I don't like that slingers seem to be a good counter. Is that realistic at all?

[Emacz]

12 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

With the cavalry speed tech lumped in, skirm cav are 57% faster than skirmishers, and spear cav are 210% faster than spearmen.

This basically puts them on another planet in terms of mobility. I don't think they need to be that much faster than infantry. However, by tinkering with melee infantry speed, we may alleviate some of the problem.

It's been done on historical  Infantry slighlyt faster base speed, cav actually slightly slower base speed. 

[Emacz]

4 minutes ago, Grautvornix said:

Just some thoughts: Bolt shooters might be a good counter, but they are too slow. So, should heavy spear cavalry be better or pikemen? Somehow I don't like that slingers seem to be a good counter. Is that realistic at all?

pikeman counter horses, not sure how to do double counter. Maybe skirmishers? since they are already the weapon of choice against eles, 1.25, 1.5, 2x dmg ?

[Atrik]

Since cs melee cavs rushs and melee champ cavs are op the obvious thing to do is to increase counter dps of inf polearms.

Melees champs cavs are brokens since they lack any counter now, but themselves counter everything (inf, siege, other cavs...) and have the highest mobility. Mobility can be fun, so the nerf should be on their ability to meatshield/destroy armies of spears => restore x3 counter for example.

[Emacz]

41 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Since cs melee cavs rushs and melee champ cavs are op the obvious thing to do is to increase counter dps of inf polearms.

Melees champs cavs are brokens since they lack any counter now, but themselves counter everything (inf, siege, other cavs...) and have the highest mobility. Mobility can be fun, so the nerf should be on their ability to meatshield/destroy armies of spears => restore x3 counter for example.

done in historical

regular spear/pike/champ spear 3x cav

champ pike 3.25x cav

pike/spear heroes 3.5x cav

[Classic-Burger]

On 02/03/2025 at 10:17 AM, Emacz said:

how so? give me some ideas

Javelins.

[Classic-Burger]

On 02/03/2025 at 4:30 PM, Emacz said:

Maybe skirmishers?

Slingers can.But cavalry easily kills slings...Unless stopped by infantry melee like spearman.

[leopard]

I don't understand why people want to nerf champion cavalry, Historically they are supposed to be more powerful and invincible, we might need a counter weapon to cause damage to them like Caltrop. Ranged units can use them, and we can give extra HP for spears if they are in formation.
or make them invincible in formation.

But in an 1v1 fight with an unskilled peasant, they are supposed to kill them in 1 hit. yet they don't do that in 0AD.
In Age of Empires IV, heavy cavalry units deal extra damage when they charge. Cavalry charges can also break enemy lines, which can be useful for hit-and-run tactics, we don't have it.
I think making them weak only make them useless in battle, forget about 1v1s
in real battle 3-4 pikes attack a single champ and kill them easily, the champ cavalry should justify the cost.
I think there should be anti-cavalry training upgrades for units so that they can reasonably save themselves from slaughter, army should have this upgrade if they must counter cavalry.

Edited Tuesday at 17:16 by leopard

[leopard]

On 03/03/2025 at 3:04 AM, LetswaveaBook said:

The concept of a champion cavalry (with 1 population) is somewhat problematic.

(1) If it can't hold up for its value in a fight (in the sense of beat a unit that is 30% of its cost), it is just a mobility gimmick.

(2) However if it is fairly competent at dealing with 30% cost units, then the game is decided by getting enough recources to build a more expensive army.

This seems an unfixable design to me.

a anti-cav tech upgrade or weapons or formation bonus can fix it in my opinion.

[leopard]

Yes, caltrops, also known as "crow's feet", were used in the Battle of Gaugamela in 331 BCE. They were an effective weapon against cavalry and chariots. [1, 2, 3]

 

How were they used? [3]

• Caltrops are area denial weapons made of sharp nails or spines arranged in a pattern. [3]
• They were used to slow down the advance of troops, especially horses, chariots, and war elephants. [3]
• The Romans called them tribulus, which means "jagged iron". [4]

How were they used in the Battle of Gaugamela? [1]

• According to a history written centuries after the battle, Persian King Darius III strewed the ground with caltrops to stop Alexander the Great's forces. [1]
• Alexander was able to maneuver around the caltrops and win the battle. [2]

How were they used in other battles? [1]

• Caltrops were used in the Battle of Nisibis in 217 AD, where they helped the Roman infantry break up a Parthian cavalry charge. [1]
• In modern times, caltrops are effective against wheeled vehicles with pneumatic tires. [3]

 

Generative AI is experimental.

[1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a60661761/ukraine-dungeons-and-dragons-weapon/

[2] https://www.historynet.com/weaponry-the-caltrop/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

[4] https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

 

Not all images can be exported from Search.

[Emacz]

3 hours ago, leopard said:

Yes, caltrops, also known as "crow's feet", were used in the Battle of Gaugamela in 331 BCE. They were an effective weapon against cavalry and chariots. [1, 2, 3]

 

How were they used? [3]

• Caltrops are area denial weapons made of sharp nails or spines arranged in a pattern. [3]
• They were used to slow down the advance of troops, especially horses, chariots, and war elephants. [3]
• The Romans called them tribulus, which means "jagged iron". [4]

How were they used in the Battle of Gaugamela? [1]

• According to a history written centuries after the battle, Persian King Darius III strewed the ground with caltrops to stop Alexander the Great's forces. [1]
• Alexander was able to maneuver around the caltrops and win the battle. [2]

How were they used in other battles? [1]

• Caltrops were used in the Battle of Nisibis in 217 AD, where they helped the Roman infantry break up a Parthian cavalry charge. [1]
• In modern times, caltrops are effective against wheeled vehicles with pneumatic tires. [3]

 

Generative AI is experimental.

[1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a60661761/ukraine-dungeons-and-dragons-weapon/

[2] https://www.historynet.com/weaponry-the-caltrop/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

[4] https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

 

Not all images can be exported from Search.

we got spikes to help out in historical too, i think a similar idea?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

IMHO, adding some kind of mechanic just to balance champ cav is too much. Perhaps Caltrops can be a tech that adds an attack bonus vs. Cavalry for infantrymen. 

[leopard]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

IMHO, adding some kind of mechanic just to balance champ cav is too much. Perhaps Caltrops can be a tech that adds an attack bonus vs. Cavalry for infantrymen. 

Caltrops and formation bonus for pikemen, Cavalry should get auto damaged like poison effect while fighting upgraded javelineer and pikemen should be harder to kill if they are in formation.

If it is too much to implement maybe a tech upgrade will be enough.
or a throw Caltrops button somewhere if we select an army and there should be a metal cost each time it is used.

[Dakara]

Yes the champion cavalry is strong, it's sometimes sad. But it's realistic. And one of the most expensive unit. 

Tests should be carried out to see the efficiency of this unit in terms of production costs. Why does this unit do slashing damage and not just piercing?  it's a spear. Is it possible for a group of melee champion cavalry to take up more space when they move? they are stuck together, this means that they attack at the same time and are difficult to target. If they are better spaced they will be less maneuverable and therefore more exposed.

Additionally some civs have very few counters to players who choose to play cav champion spear. Maybe alternatives should be added? I'm thinking of the Iberians for example.
Additionally a unit without a shield should take some extra damage from archers.

Perhaps the problem lies in playing with 200 POPs. How to counter an army that has 30 field cav with a citizen infantry army? However, raising the champion cav to 2 pop would be too big a nerf.

Remove the life bonus tech on champion units for Selucid and Persian civs?

In a scheme where the population is limited and to satisfy an equilibrium. It is normal for an elite, expert unit cost higher resource cost than a basic unit. If we calculate the resource efficiency in relation to the life and health of the units. This does not meet these requirements. Especially since cavalry has the advantage of mobility.  Of course existing counter multipliers to try to alleviate this problem.  Imagine an increase in resource costs?

It can be a choice, why not. But this significantly widens the gap between an eco player and a non-eco player / the gap between an one player who has a civilization with this unit and one who doesn't
Even if you're Persian, how can you counter this without making it yourself? it's not the immortal with 120 hp in the form of a spearman who will counter him (btw i love this unit idea)

 

Edit : make unable capture building for cavalery

Edited Wednesday at 14:56 by Dakara

[Seleucids]

The problem perhaps is not champion cavalry themselves but rather the lack of counters from some civs. 

Mauryas and Brits are total sitting ducks against champion spear cav. 

Most civs can only counter by making equal numbers of this unit in the hope of a stalemate

Only a few civs have decent counters: Spartans, Macedonians and Athenians have champion spearman that can kill this unit effectively. 

Gauls are the only civ near perfection because their naked fanatics do exactly the job of countering spear cav. Can we give other civs some champion spearman or things similar to naked fanatics?

 

Gauls are the single most OP civ right now because they are not missing anything. They have no weakness. 

[Emacz]

 

 

3 hours ago, Seleucids said:

The problem perhaps is not champion cavalry themselves but rather the lack of counters from some civs. 

Mauryas and Brits are total sitting ducks against champion spear cav. 

Most civs can only counter by making equal numbers of this unit in the hope of a stalemate

Only a few civs have decent counters: Spartans, Macedonians and Athenians have champion spearman that can kill this unit effectively. 

Gauls are the only civ near perfection because their naked fanatics do exactly the job of countering spear cav. Can we give other civs some champion spearman or things similar to naked fanatics?

 

Gauls are the single most OP civ right now because they are not missing anything. They have no weakness. 

arent they missing "range" at least archers?  I guess they have slingers... and no ranged siege... but agree they are probably the strongest or at least one of top civs.

You know what my answer is gonan be