[Community mod] Melee rebalance

[real_tabasco_sauce]

In several previous discussions, forum participants have expressed discontent with the current role of melee in 0ad a26. In general, melee units do substantially less damage than ranged units, while having far greater armor. Because of this, melee units are often more effectively used to "shield" ranged units from other ranged attacks. Crucially, it is melee units durability which makes them strong versus ranged units and not their actual attack. 

Because of this, many players place low priority on melee upgrades to the point of skipping them entirely. Hack armor is researched to make melee attacks on ranged units weaker, but it is also a low priority tech.

The "meat shield" meta is epitomized by the pikemen unit: 2 hack + 3 pierce in 2 seconds is a childish 2.5 dps on an unarmored enemy. Even the champion version is harmless. Meanwhile they have an absurd 10 hack 8 pierce armor before upgrades.

It is time for a large scale rework of melee units, and try to name a better place to test this than the community mod. To summarize:

infantry

• melee CS units "standard" armor is 3 hack, 3 pierce (more specialized units deviate slightly from this)
• Champions are 6h, 6p, with exceptions (ex pikemen)
• across the board damage has been doubled (extra for pikemen, and special case for macemen)

Cavalry

• melee cavalry deal slightly more damage than their infantry counterpart (in keeping with current design)
• armor is similar to current values, but with less pierce armor. Ranged cav hack armor is decreased so they still lose vs melee cav.

Try it as a mod: 

Current version: (50% more melee damage, 25% less ranged damage, 3h 3p melee inf armor, +0.5 m/s move speed) Get it on mod.io, might not work for a27.

This is based on the community mod (edit: 0.26.4 now), so it is larger than necessary. My apologies.

Keep in mind that melee units will still die first due to UnitAI, as they always have. This proposal seeks to enable melee units to be more impactful in battles, so that investing in their upgrades might allow you to defeat enemy melee units first and force a retreat.

Stat chart (this is version 1):

version 2 is this with -25% all unit damage, and +0.5 melee inf movespeed.

melee rebalance
CS infantry	attack	previous	armor	previous	Champion	attack		armor
spear	6h 5p (1.0s)	3h 2.5p (1.0s)	3h 3p	5h 5p	spear	12h 10p (1.0s)	6h 5p (1.0s)	6h 6p	8h 8p
sword	11h (0.75s)	5.5h (0.75s)	3h 3p	5h 5p	sword	22h (0.75s)	11h (0.75s)	6h 6p	8h 8p
pike	5h 9p (2.0s)	2h 3p (2.0s)	5h 5p	10h 8p	pike	10h 18p (2.0s)	4h 6p (2.0s)	8h 8p	13h 11p
axe	12h 4c (1.0s)	6h 2c (1.0s)	2h 3p	4h 5p	axe	24h 8c (1.0s)	12h 4c (1.0s)	5h 6p	7h 8p
mace	7c 7h (1.0s)	7c (1.0s)	3h 3p	4h 5p	mace	14c 14h (1.0s)	14c (1.0s)	6h 6p	6h 6p
cavalry
(ranged armor)	2h 1p	3h 1p
CS cavalry	attack	previous	armor	previous	champion	attack		armor
spear	7.7h 6.5p (1.25s)	4h 3p (1.25s*)	3h 3p	5h 3p	spear	15.5h 13p (1.25)	8h 6p (1.25s)	7h 6p	8h 7p
sword	12h (0.75s)	6.5h (0.75s)	3h 2.5p	3h 4p	sword	24h (0.75s)	13h (0.75s)	6h 5.5p	7h 9p
axe	14h 4.5c (1.0s)	8.7h (1.25s)(cm)	3h 2p	3h 2p	axe	28h 8c (1.0s)	13.8h 4.6c (1s)	6h 5p	7h 7p
mace	7.5c 7.5 (1.0s)	8c (1.0s)	2h 2p	4h 2p	mace	15c 15h (1.0s)	16c (1.0s)	5h 5p	7h 6p

Edited June 18, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce
add the improved version 2

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Nice work! I am hoping that this produces fights with more variables.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

here's the branch: https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...melee_buff?from_project_id=36954588&straight=false

[Atrik]

I wonder if this would make ranged units useless or sniping of melees really important.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@guerringuerrin I re-uploaded the mod. Now it should include all the changes from community mod 0.26.4 and the new melee changes. I would still disable the real community mod before enabling this.

4 minutes ago, Atrik said:

I wonder if this would make ranged units useless or sniping of melees really important.

I'd say sniping will still be good, but maybe not as important as it is now. It's hard to say for sure.

Edited March 26, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

31 minutes ago, Atrik said:

I wonder if this would make ranged units useless or sniping of melees really important.

Hopefully there can be a happy middle ground. I think this could make unit compostitions way more important.

[Lion.Kanzen]

This can only be known by testing (we all have variations of the same idea).

 

Hopefully it will be spectacular and will generate tactics and maneuvers.

[alre]

did you test battle scenarios?

[Atrik]

Maybe rams should have some hack resistance with this. Otherwise they'll have no more roles as they'll be too brittle against melees AND melees would now be decently effective against buildings.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Atrik They will now die faster to buildings because their pierce damage is lower. We will have to see how fast they kill rams and potentially give 1 or 2 hack armor levels to rams.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, alre said:

did you test battle scenarios?

yep, here are my general findings

• There is a lot to test, but the main behaviors are as expected.
• Swords beat spearmen by a little
• spearmen better counter cavalry
• spearcav better counter cavalry
• ranged units can still kill melee units but take more damage when they catch up
• pikemen work less well as a meat shield and provide interesting fights because of their range.
  • They are now more balanced in melee+ranged fights
• Melee units rank up more frequently.
• so far, nothing is overtly OP, but the possibility remains.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

11 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

champion cavalry spear 15.5h 13p, 7h 6p

Maybe I should lower 7 hack attack to 6.

[hyperion]

Ranged units have to high dps so let's change all else.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, hyperion said:

Ranged units have to high dps so let's change all else.

yep

[LetswaveaBook]

The swordsmen only need 0.75 seconds between attack, which might make them OP. If melee damage becomes the deciding factor, then maybe a smaller increase in attack rate (from 0.75 to 0.8) would be sufficient to make swordsmen viable.

This suggestion might be nice to try in the weekend of the 1st and 2nd of April.

 

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

12 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

The swordsmen only need 0.75 seconds between attack, which might make them OP. If melee damage becomes the deciding factor, then maybe a smaller increase in attack rate (from 0.75 to 0.8) would be sufficient to make swordsmen viable.

This suggestion might be nice to try in the weekend of the 1st and 2nd of April.

yes, that is a good point. In my experiments swordsmen did beat spearmen, but not by a huge margin. I think their metal cost and lack of cavalry counter make this reasonable.

I'd be happy to find time to test it out over the next weekend.

Edited March 26, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Quote

5.5h (0.75s)

Just make it 1s so the dps calc is easier. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

18 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Just make it 1s so the dps calc is easier. 

I think the different repeat times are a minor differentiator and they contribute slightly to the look and feel of different units.

The dps calc is trivial: D/R

so 5.5*1.25 or 25% more. For 12 damage swordcav, this nicely works out to 16 hack per second.

[Adeimantos]

Basically, this change makes infantry more similar to infantry in the age of empires series. I think you should apply the changes you propose to some melee units but not all of them. Leave the spearman alone, maybe reduce only the melee armor on the swordmen and only the pierce armor on the pikemen (that'll affect how much you should increase their attack), go ahead with the other changes. That way each unit will be more unique, allowing more strategies for army composition.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

11 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

Basically, this change makes infantry more similar to infantry in the age of empires series. I think you should apply the changes you propose to some melee units but not all of them. Leave the spearman alone, maybe reduce only the melee armor on the swordmen and only the pierce armor on the pikemen (that'll affect how much you should increase their attack), go ahead with the other changes. That way each unit will be more unique, allowing more strategies for army composition.

@Adeimantos

The objective of the branch is just to make melee globally more powerful, so the changes have to be similar for all units. Specifically so that they have a greater impact on the outcome of battles than before. Ideally, these global changes can be later refined in community mod updates to improve differentiation as you mention as well as balance.

[Adeimantos]

2 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@Adeimantos

The objective of the branch is just to make melee globally more powerful, so the changes have to be similar for all units. Specifically so that they have a greater impact on the outcome of battles than before. Ideally, these global changes can be later refined in community mod updates to improve differentiation as you mention as well as balance.

I got the impression that you wanted to halve armor and double attack. If anything i think that would make melee weaker and make it more possible to win battles with an army of only archers.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 27/03/2023 at 10:08 AM, Adeimantos said:

I got the impression that you wanted to halve armor and double attack. If anything i think that would make melee weaker and make it more possible to win battles with an army of only archers.

Halve armor, no. Just from 5 to 3 for spearmen, swordsmen. Currently, their high armor and low attack makes melee units in general more effective as a damage sponge, even including swordsmen. Doubling attack makes them more effective and interesting, something you want to invest in via upgrades. You have to decrease armor because this would make them OP.

It's good that you don't have to guess about the outcomes though, because I have a download available for you to try out these changes:

 

[see top post for both version 1 and 2]

Edited March 31, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[LetswaveaBook]

1 hour ago, Adeimantos said:

Basically, this change makes infantry more similar to infantry in the age of empires series.

without the hindering pathfinding of Age of Empires 1&2, melee infantry won't be like in Age of Empires 1&2. You need 'bad' pathfinding for that.

 

1 hour ago, Adeimantos said:

I got the impression that you wanted to halve armor and double attack.

5 ->3 armor means that units receive around 23% more damage, which is not entirely the same as 100%

[chrstgtr]

This all needs testing (read: community mod implementation), but a few things stand off the page to me. Items (1), (2), and (3) deal with the actual stats you propose (i.e., their balance relative to other units, straight up) while item (3) concerns the general nature of your approach. 

1. Pike look too strong relative to spear. 
2. Sword cav looks like they get way too much of a buff. They're already the strongest CS unit. They easily destroy ranged units when they encounter them (which they can do because of cav speed). The step down in pierce armor will help, but I doubt it is enough to compensate for their attack doubling. Sword cav also can beat melee units. Basically their only current weakness is against spear/pike (i.e., units with a 3x counter). But, under your proposal, sword cav will get a doubling of attack with no decrease in hack armor. In effect, sword cav's strengths are doubled (attacked) or unchanged (speed) while their weakness is unchanged (hack armor stays the same). 
3. Why did you include cav in this at all? Cav aren't part of the meat shield meta. Players use cav's speed to move around and flank ranged armies without having to engage meat shields. And when cav do fight against meat shields that are heavy on spears, the cav army suffers unstainable losses (cost and time to replenish). As far as cav vs. cav fights are concerned, I don't think there is a meat shield meta problem nor have I widely heard people complain of one. (I know you want to buff CS spear cav, which I agree with, but that's different because it is just a weak unit relative to other melee and range cav. I know you also want to change axe cav, which I agree need to be changed, but axe cav just need a re-conception into something else like becoming a glass cannon meant to destroy buildings.).
4. This doesn't directly change the incentive to create a meat shield--it only changes the pace at which the meat shield will die. Currently, melee troops regularly beat range troops when they can actually engage in straight up fights. But these units never get a chance to engage because they're too slow relative to range units. Making melee units faster would introduce more maneuvering strategy and allow the current units to actually engage in fights with range. Without a change to speed, I question whether any attack/health/armor changes will impact anything (because the melee units will still just fight one another in a meat shield meta

Other stuff just needs to be tested to see if they're balanced vs. one another and to see if the desired effect (elimination of the the meat shield) actually takes effect. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

19 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Pike look too strong relative to spear. 

look too strong. They lose vs spears in 1:1, and slightly win 1v1 (50/50 melee/ranged composition) without micro. So in battle outcomes its actually a nerf.

21 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Sword cav looks like they get way too much of a buff.

This was one of my points of contention. 2 hack or 2.5 pierce armor. Playtests will make this more clear.

22 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Why did you include cav in this at all? Cav aren't part of the meat shield meta.

How would you feel about doubling melee infantry damage and leaving cavalry unchanged? Seems like a bad idea to me. There is a cavalry meat shield although it really only happens when 2 cav armies fight.

24 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Currently, melee troops regularly beat range troops when they can actually engage in straight up fights.

This is due to their armor, not due to their damage. Basically, they massively outlast ranged units instead of killing them quickly.

25 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

(because the melee units will still just fight one another in a meat shield meta

True, I acknowledge this in my first post. However, the key detail is that this allows melee units to be more influential in fights. The reason they rarely rank up currently is because they contribute little damage to battles, and instead act as damage sponges. Ex. Swordsmen currently deal significantly less damage than an archer.

This branch makes melee units more interesting to fight with and upgrade: If melee units are dealing significant damage, this opens up more possibilities for fights.

For example, army B has fully teched swordsmen, while army A as fully teched pikemen armor. The highly effective swordsmen from B can kill pikemen much faster than they get killed and thus can break through to enemy ranged units.

If this engagement happens in a26, the primary deciding factor on who wins the melee fight is actually the ranged units' damage.