Carltonus

In the scenario "Sandbox - The Spartans", Player 1 uses the Athenian faction rather than the intended Spartan. Madness, I tell you! Also, the perioikoi hoplites don't assume the idle phalanx stance as the Spartiates and heroes do: 0 A.D. 2022-08-24 04-29-12.mp4

The plan was that the marine-unlocking tech be a new file itself, but since the Iphicratean Reforms parameters were originally for this purpose, might as well rename it to what @wowgetoffyourcellphone prefers better for ease: "Delian League", "Delian Marines", or somebody else can propose a different name. In my case, since it is for allowing marines and Cretans to be recruited at ports and triremes, name it to something like "Naval Deployment", "Naval Preparedness", or the related. Then the consensus process can begin. Back on topic and reiterating, the Iphicratean Reforms tech is supposed to be for unlocking the epilektos (and the future light peltast/hoplite hybrid). Some have said that this is post-golden age of Athens, so it does little to the faction as a whole and could put the epilektos itself in doubt. But since it would be one less champion, this already-present tech should serve its purpose. The archer- and marine-unlocking tech will still be there, but the two units should not need this to be required to be trained at the barracks and gymnasium, respectively; only for extension to be trained also at the two naval entities mentioned above.

Reluctantly agree, but that will make two citizen swordsmen, the other being the hippeus (Greek cavalry). If there is consensus, that and the Greek scout cavalry may have to swap their recruitable phases. As well as a replacement for the champion unit (the light peltast, anybody?). There was another stoa unit in alpha 23, a mercenary Thracian swordsman which is a mix of the present Macedonian champion and Seleuicid mercenary. It was recruitable in town phase but acted as like other champions. The faction had three swordsmen types in all. Is anyone really going to do the necessary rename of and creation of the marine and reform techs? Would post this to the alpha 27 suggestions for reminder if this is not the right time...

How about the new Macedonian wonder (26397)? Though, it still needs the generic name of "Palace of (or 'at') Aigai" so to clarify the ancient Greek translation to other players.

Can the larger ships (especially triremes, quinquiremes, and the tesserakonteres) able to go across the Strait of Gibraltar? At least it should fit two trading ships...

Sorry for double posting, but @Freagarach, the present Iphicratean reforms tech in the next alpha is inconsistent with the name itself and historically. Better if a new tech was made (see previous post above) for the unlocking of marines and Cretan archers in ports/triremes called "Delian (whatever)" or something else, and the actual "Iphicratean Reforms" is for unlocking the epilektos (and possibly the future replacement of the stoa thureophoros from Alpha 23). Suggest that said Cretan archer and marine (city phase) do not need the tech for training in barracks and gymnasium, respectively. Anyone have other thoughts?

This was not part of my request though, but we can see the huge difference between the Athenian elite and champion hoplite. It was actually about the proposed champion hoplite/skirmisher hybrid in the sketch (not the colored one which depicts the "Epilektos") in the first page of this thread: With the intention of bringing back the stoa thureophoros (champion skirmisher) from Alpha 23, in a way, when secondary attacks become a thing.

Rather than editing the existing Iphicratean reforms tech itself, which can be a future game mechanic, create a new one as either of the above quote. Said future mechanic is the one that would unlock the two champions, one of them bringing back the champion skirmisher from Alpha 23 but with intended garb.

Hmm... that would require a sampling of the proposed proto-pikeman, as well as consensus from other members allowing the change to the pikeman-class unit. Note the illustration from previous page says that the "spear is lengthened to 12ft (3.6m)" which would argue a for slightly increased attack range while still remaining a champion hoplite, as compared to the ~20ft of the Macedonian sarissa. Here is the full version: That has been there since the Hellenic faction split between the three Greek ones. Any argument(s) against the mercenary Thracian skirmishers? Also take into account the other civilian ranged unit: the slinger. Now you want two types of civilian missile troops? Three types if you include the scout. That is where visible garrisoning or the turrets system comes into play. Did you mean that said warships get a defensive bonus with a marine "garrisoning" or inside? Agreed, but only when the champion archers are actually scrapped, so my opinion remains mixed. Regarding the "Maybe an upgrade from the prythaneon as an alternative reflecting their duties?" question, this is about the Scythian police. As a viable alternative, what bonuses can be added in lieu of replacing the Scythian archers? For the epilektoi, has a modeller thought of creating at least a separate quilted leather cuirass like the one on the left, or it was already made? @wackyserious and @wowgetoffyourcellphone, if either of you have the time to present (the two of) us the light peltast with oval wicker shield from the illustration on the first page, that would be appreciated. This can be a perfect replacement for the champion skirmisher wielding the (probably) anachronistic thureos from alpha 23.

At this rate from all the proposals, the Athenians will probably have three hoplites (maybe four), each of differing statistics: "Athenian Hoplite", "Chosen Hoplite" (similar statistics to a Spartiate), and "Light Hoplite" (the current epilektos). The Light Peltast has the long spear as a secondary attack, once implemented. Do not forget that Hellenistic pikemen in this game can assume the syntagma (rectangle) formation. The proposed proto-pikemen should form the phalanx like their fellow citizen hoplites, not that one. Call them "pikemen", but they still appear hoplite-like to me, just lighter and have a slight boost in attack range. Is there any problem with the Thracian peltasts (mercenary javelineers) or the podromoi (scout cavalry)? Mercenary and citizen, respectively. The latter probably describes your "ordinary citizen javelinmen", with a mount. Turning spearmen into pikemen is like fast-forwarding to Athens's golden age to the time of Alexander. Naval concepts like ramming and boarding have not yet been coded into the game. Which buffs in particular? No problem scrapping the Scythian archers completely, if their Cretan counterparts be recruited from the barracks without research requirements... Maybe an upgrade from the prythaneon as an alternative reflecting their duties?

In addition, like the Han palace guards, suggest adding (or if not, changing them into) a melee unit, wielding either club or axe. That reflects their role more descriptively. Maybe give them an aura or two that boosts/weakens nearby citizen soldiers and support which could be a double-edged sword (figuratively). Reiterating my current and simple suggestion for this reform tech: unlock two fast infantry units, which are not the marines nor Cretan archers. The rest is found on my previous posts here. A better idea, since the reforms itself seem out of the time-frame of the golden age of this faction: the hero himself should be on the field to open this technology, even after he is killed. Pikemen are a whole different story, maybe Athens during the Hellenistic period, and in a separate faction from the current, with their mercenary (mistophoroi) pikemen. Thought this was about the current champion hoplite "changed into some proto-Philip II pikemen". Which specific attributes for the Hellenistic pikemen you want considered to be modified? Note that if you have followed the older alpha versions, the mixed Greek faction had a champion hoplite-skirmisher hybrid, then the (probably) anachronistic thureophoros in 23, recruited from the now-deprecated royal stoa. These two are supposed to be replaced with the light peltast mentioned earlier. For the marines, no problem for me if they can be "demoted" to citizen swordsmen. A compromise can be that when they reach elite, they are armored and no longer run primarily like the thorakites (heavy swordsmen). If that creates complexity in code, the aforementioned forked tech, choosing between fast or armored, has also been suggested. The latter will unlock another champion hoplite (around the same statistics as a Spartiate) and probably another one which the rest of you can decide.

Also, "Iphicratean Reforms" would not a good name for this one, that itself is discussed further here. Suggest the new name(s) for hiring marines and Cretan archers in the dock and/or triremes something to do with "(fast) deployment" or a "quick-reaction force" in Attic Greek. They should be recruitable directly from the gymnasium and barracks, respectively, without any prerequisite research; that is for said hiring tech for both dock and warship.

Will the other factions have their own folders for the portraits? The Han is currently the only one with this convention: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/art/textures/ui/session/portraits/units

Quoting @Nescio from above link, "[T]here is no evidence for Briton kennels", thus adding more weight for training them at the Corral or some other existing structure...

It appears there is still little to none, given that... @AIEND has a point there, but that gives rise to which buildings ("structures" as we call here) represent such. Awaiting response to whether they agree or disagree with the two names from the changeset.

The background could be lighter, or changed to the shades of yellow to complement the purple cloak. If it should remain the same, a bit more lighting is enough. Please take your time to produce the Han-dynasty hero portraits even after the sixth, minor issues such as this could be done before the Commit Freeze in my opinion. That way, everyone will not be bothered with portraits of cropped image models as one of those bad starts for the new faction.

That makes more historically-accurate sense. Does the rest of the community have consensus? "Xìan" (縣, Gwēns/*ɡʷeːns) and "Jùn" (郡, Gluns/*ɡluns) are ones to be put in the phase_town_generic.json and phase_city_generic.json files, respectively, for the "han" parameter. Knew that both characters mean the capital, as that would only apply to Chang'an (Xi'an) if within 0 A.D. timeframe... What can you come up for the empire phase for your mod, @wowgetoffyourcellphone. Should be another one-character, maybe two.

Don't forget the full Gate of All Nations model, @wowgetoffyourcellphone. If that will not be the future Wonder, will it be another special building for the hiring of the champion hoplite and skirmisher, an Atlas-only special building with the same purpose, or something else? The first two would work for the so-called "Hall"...

Hold on for a moment! The names of the two phases should be attested in ancient Chinese literature, whether one-character or two-character. We should not be using anything anachronistic, as in after the Han dynasty. Note that Cūnzhuāng (Sun-srang) is not first attested in Old Chinese, but in the poetry of Wang Wei (Tang dynasty), too late to be used here. Is Xiāngzhèn (Qang-tin(s)) attested in the older literature? Xiàn (Gwens), Jùn (Gluns), and Dū (Ta)/Jīng (Krang) seems more fitting for this era.

As the Han Chinese faction is being included with the next alpha, let's also propose the names of the town and city phases for the notification and phase-up tech. One that has been neglected for some of the other factions... For the town phase, how about Chéngshì (城市, Dyeng-dyu)? For city, Dūshì (都市, Ta-dyu). Can't find a better one for the former though.

Thureos came later during the Hellenistic period, in my current knowledge; any accounts regarding them before/around the time of Alexander? Iphicrates was around 4th century BCE. Believe that "Light Peltast" would be a better name for the proposed champion skirmisher with the oval wicker shields.

"Ptolemy"? The champions of the Ptolemaic faction are agema pikeman and spear cavalry. Athenians have three, with one requiring an inconsistent technological research item in the council hall (prythaneon). Since the discussion here is about the Athenian champions, we should also take into consideration the marines and Scythian police. Who agrees renaming the "Iphicratean reforms" tech to one for unlocking the marine units (epibates and Cretan archers)? Land-only maps should also be taken into account, so (1) Cretan archers should also be hired in a structure other than the port and (2) marines should also be trained in the gymnasium. The upgrade should be explicit, recruiting from triremes (and port, for balancing). The Iphicratean reforms (reiterating, if be retained) should unlock the present "epilektos" and a champion skirmisher; both light and fast. Any thoughts for armored marines and the logades (armored hoplite), slow and sturdy? Finally, the Scythian police. Which the community prefers: Clubmen ("macmen")/axemen (sagaris), or archer? Any auras to represent their policing duty?

Would wish to support scrapping the Iphicratean reforms tech outright in light of @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded's view of "the height" of Athenian civilization, but no consensus among the other community members seems to have been reached. In this case, what alternative technologies and champion units can replace the Iphicratean influences? Coming back to this, the reforms (if retained) should actually unlock a champion light hoplite like the present epilektos, as well as a champion skirmisher akin to the theureophoros a few alphas ago. Marines should be a whole different story, separate tech to unlock (light/armored fork?). Image references: When secondary weapons are a thing, the champion light peltasts can double as a hoplite. Don't forget to replace the thureos with oval wicker shields.