chrstgtr

+1 There are a lot of maps I don't like to place solely because of placement. This could really help address

I can see how that might be the case. But I can also see how the opposite would be true too. Have you run any tests?

But why? You can do crush that adjusts still. Doing it by armor here makes a problem where one doesn't exist. Yeah, I'm more concerned about range units taking them out first, though. I thought you said you wanted to keep melee/range balance? How does this keep it?

Let's have a vote. Do people prefer "strong hitting, incredible targeting" or "amazingly strong strikes"?

Ok that makes more sense. Thanks for bearing with me. I think it's a valid goal and one that makes sense for the community mod. I, however, see three main pitfalls right now. For the first one, I think you can make a slight adjustment to get rid of it before testing. For the second and third issues, I think you just have to test it. It should be a health nerf instead of an armor nerf. Otherwise units that rely on crush for damage, such as slingers, clubs, axes, and cata, will get relatively weaker (esp. clubs and axes, which are already so rarely used). Also, while changing armor for spear/sword is easy (because they have the same armor) it is hard for pike (because they have different pierce/hack armor values relative to their armor counterpart and relative to other melee units). Health is also just easier to deal with because it will make even changes across the board (instead of doing calculations for pike armor changes and possible crush armor changes). This will impact melee units' strength relative to defensive buildings because they will not be able to stand under buildings as long. I don't feel great about this, but I'm on board for testing it. You can't really adjust for this because any adjustment will also impact range units' survivability under defensive buildings. This will impact impact infantry's strength relative to cav. Right now, spear should be the counter to cav (query on whether that is actually true...). Making spear die faster will exacerbate any imbalances that exist for inf relative to cav. It also will outright make melee cav stronger relative to melee inf. This could be dealt with by adjusting cav health, but we've already seen proposals on that fail. Whatever you do to melee infantry I think has to be done to melee cav too because otherwise melee inf will get too big of a nerf relative to melee cav. Even if you do that, I think there might be some problems because of already existing imbalances. I don't feel great about this, but it's just something that has to be tested. What values are you thinking? I would want to keep the decreases in line with the increases so we can test if change actually adjusts the meta in a desirable way. Something like a 10% decrease to survivability and a 10% increase in attack? Maybe a 20%-20%? I wouldn't go as far as making melee dps equal to range dps because that would require like a 50% reduction in survivability, which would make them die really fast. Unlike everything included in previous community mods, I have no idea whether this will succeed. This is exactly the type of thing that I think should be tested in the mod, though.

So is the goal to keep melee's balance relative to other melee and keep melee's balance relative to range by decreasing survivability and increasing attack by corresponding amount? And to do this you propose to decrease pierce and hack armor by the same amount? I'm just trying to figure out your goals and why you are messing with armor instead of health. Edit:typo

I don't understand what your goal is. Is it to change melee's relative strength versus range, versus melee, or versus melee and range? If you just want melee to do be a glass cannon without changing the overall balance relative to other melee or range then you should just decrease health and leave armor unchanged. Messing with armor changes melee's strength relative to other unit classes and uses two variables to do what one cold do. Also, note that if you are going to make melee die faster then that will inevitably shift more strength to cav (unless there is a correspond change there--which already failed by vote).

You're starting to lose me. Some of this is inconsistent. I'm with you for a hack armor decrease (and a possible speed buff), but I don't understand the pierce armor decrease. And an attack damage increase seems like extra noise on top of armor changes, which will do the same thing in a more targeted manner. The same is true of players not getting melee attack, though, and the same thing happens when players do get upgrades. Melee units are just strong versus range units when the units actually engage. Getting them to engage has always been a problem. I'm not sure this is true. Running away still means you will lose a lot of units. But even if this is true, increasing attack damage won't change this--units will still run away. If this is true, isn't the fix then to also add melee speed buff (in addition to whatever else happens)? So, currently, is melee is fine versus range or not? This is inconsistent with the above. Isn't this the case now? If this wasn't true then why would there be any need for a change? Players could walk past meat shields now, but don't because it is too damaging. This already exists. Sniping is a response to "over-killing," where more units target an enemy than necessary to kill it. Over-killing will continue to exist with your proposal. Without micro, your proposal will make over-killing more common because units will have less armor. -------- I'm having trouble understanding why you think think pierce armor should change. It's difficult to follow what you are actually trying to respond to with respect to melee versus range. At once, you seem to be saying that melee is too weak versus range but also too strong versus range and then proposing to change everything. By changing multiple variables in opposite directions it makes the outcomes unpredictable. Either melee should be stronger versus range or it should be weaker versus range, but you seem to be saying it should be both stronger and weaker and the actual net outcome of proposed changes will be unknown. I'm also having difficult understanding by attack damage should increase. Decreasing armor effectively increases attack damage effectiveness, but can be more targeted (i.e., you can make attacks more effective versus melee or versus range). I don't understand why you want to change attack damage's effectiveness versus melee (via a decrease in hack armor), versus range (via a decrease in pierce armor), and versus both melee/range (via an increase melee attack). Why not just change the armor (of hack or pierce--which will let you more efficiently target effectiveness)?

Your logic/goal is starting to make more sense--you want melee fights to be a true fight as opposed to a sideshow. That seems like a valid goal. (Note, my solution of making melee units faster so they can just get to enemy range units didn't address this, so I think you might be onto something). This sounds like you can achieve it with just a hack armor decrease, right? Why would you need to increase attack? If you decrease melee's hack armor then that will make melee's attacks more powerful against other melee, which seems like your goal. Increasing melee's attack will also make melee more impactful against range, but melee is already very strong against range when they actually engage. Why do you want to decrease melee's pierce armor? That will make range even stronger vs. melee (i.e., it could eliminate the need for a meat shield because range would be more able to fight with melee head-on).

Agree in main. Makes sense--good call out. Worried about its impact on champ spear cav, though. But the other nerf above should address that. Agree. I'm still planning to look and give you feedback from last time. We tried to talk about this before in the lobby but didn't get the chance. What are you intending to do? How is it different, if at all, from the linked discussion?

Agree in the main. But this failed on a vote. (Also, a -2 to hack and a -1 to pierce is probably better for you state is the goal--making them more vulnerable when fighting straight up). I feel like we could get broad support for a melee champ cav nerf, which I think @real_tabasco_sauce is going to put forward in the next round. Sounds interesting. I think these inf vs cav tradeoff techs have potential. Really, this is just a buff to champ inf, which I think should happen. ---- Relatedly, this is all inspired from a game you spectated with me, right?

I've noticed that berries disappear a lot in fog of war this alpha. You will see them and then they will disappear in the fog. Sometimes they show back up in the fog. To be clear, berries aren't getting used up--they're still there if you get them into vision.

I've noticed that berries disappear a lot in fog of war this alpha. You will see them and then they will disappear in the fog. Sometimes they show back up in the fog. To be clear, berries aren't getting used up--they're still there if you get them into vision.

Yeah, let's change to "strong hitting, incredible targeting."

Both. I think it has to change--2% is obviously too low. I'm not certain 5% is right, but I'm pretty sure it won't be OP. Community mod gets it into game quicker. Phab makes it permanent. Could go with something more radical like 10% in the community mod and test first, though.

Ministers also have to be buffed if you want anyone to make them. Right now, you're better off just making a unit that can eco because the discounts are so small. I would suggest 5% instead of the 2%.

Thanks—appreciate it For what it’s worth, I think the bot is good because it explains why things happen.

How do you suppose we learned that it was triggered by "wtf"? And, why would you say the bot's erroneous reaction was correct? This is simply an instance where there is an over-broad net being cast, which is why I reported it.

@Dizaka literally just wrote "wtf == will to fight." I don't know how it is "obvious" that that isn't meant to mean will to fight--it is literally spelled out.

Sure. How is that organic, though? I don't think it is. That would be an excuse for other behavior.

Hard to understand how "wtf == will to fight" gets interpreted as "what the f*ck" Either way, it's pretty clear that this will lead to a lot of false hits

GenieBot is muting people for saying wtf, which is a common abbreviation for will to fight.

Sure. Set it at a constant, though. If dancing is bad (I agree, it is) then set it at a level than makes dancing ineffective. You shouldn’t have to do an upgrade to get rid of something that shouldn’t exist. Velocity is otherwise a proxy for accuracy (I.e., spread), which has its own, more direct variable. I think that’s what @real_tabasco_sauce was really aiming for too FWIW, dancing has been largely eliminated through a series of changes in recent alphas. Imo, that’s one of the best things that came out of a24. Edit: I know you’re not advocating here one way or the other, Stan. But I just want to clarify for everyone else

No votes the last few days. And unless there is a surge of votes, the results won’t change. I think we have what we have and might as well start testing

I think I voted for it, but I fear we are slipping into just making them spears. I don't have any good suggestions here. Maybe increasing attack range, like your 23 unit upgrade patch, would keep them differentiated and then you could decrease armor or something too to keep them from being OP