chrstgtr

I get that. But it would also be nice if the people who spit the most vitriol from the depths of 4chan weren't the same people that rank among the most excited for 'slaves.' I'm not saying it's everyone, but there is a large overlap.

For me, yes

Great. Both are much better than 2/3 of Athens current heroes

I have issues with cav/inf balance. But that’s beyond the scope here.

See above. Some people think p1 is already too strong. Some people think p3 is already too strong. p2 is the age that needs to get stronger—which I tend to agree with

I find healers quite strong at rank 3. It’s not that they keep units alive—a unit under fire dies. It’s that that can reheal a unit after a fight so it doesn’t die right away in the next fight. That has a snowball effect. It also allows you to rank up your fighting units, which also has a snowball effect. A couple rank3 healers can heal an entire army quite quickly. Denying that strength is basically saying that a half promoted army isn’t OP, but we all know it is

That sounds hard. Also sounds like same gameplay when that balanced I don’t care to argue. I just want the current system gone

Then make it slightly longer building time. Ptol used to require a different play style that many people could not keep up with and resulted in players getting “housed” constantly. Ptol right now is just easy. I don’t know what the answer is, but what we’ve had since a24 def isn’t right.

Fine. Or just add an extra hero for Athens.

I would just revert to the way it was in a23. We know that worked and it was unique. Or are you asking a different question?

Town phase is p2. This will move one forge tech from p3 to p2. p1 will have 0 techs, p2 will have 2 new techs, and p3 will have 1 new tech. Making p2 stronger makes p1 weaker.

It is a 25% stone discount and stone is the only res. So it is a decrease from 25% res discount. Fair point re Themistocles. It's better than I thought at a glance (mostly because I misread it at first). I wouldn't mind if the proposal was implemented. I'm not excited about it (because like you say these aren't meant to be great heroes), but I think it'll be a small improvement. I would love if these were modified to make Athens' (or any other civ's) heroes as good as Ptol or Brits.

Pericles temple cost goes from a 25% discount to a 15% discount. Themistocles goes from a 50% speed bonus to a 15% speed bonus. I misread some other ones, so that's my fault. But like @Darkcity said, a lot of the problems with one of the heroes results from the prevailing non-naval gameplay. After a closer look, these may be fine. But I don't know.

The Athens heroes proposal is largely a nerf.

I would go slow. This alpha isn't fully understood yet. And introducing a bunch of new changes will make understanding this alpha and the new changes very difficult. With that said there are a few universal changes that impact all civs equally. My thoughts below: Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units Good Pericles and Themistocles update Not needed--no one makes these heroes Rebalance healers by making them cheaper Yes to healer cost. No, to healer upgrades--should do one at a time. Healers were often used in a23. I could see this making a civ like Athens with Iphicrates and healers OP. Move tier 2 blacksmith technologies to Town Phase Yes. P2 is currently a transition phase with little actual fighting. P3 incentive still exists for eco/final blacksmith reasons Nerf heroes Iphicrates and Ptolemy No for now. Need to see how this alpha plays out. It's been discussed elsewhere, but Iphicates should become a distance aura instead of a formation aura. With that said, I will likely agree with this for Iphicates. I don't like the Ptol change

You’re right. Maybe an in game “recent changes” viewer would be best. My last few points are just to say: it should be readily apparent what changes were made by the mod. I don’t know if that is easiest is in a forum stickied post or in an in-game option. The mod is a great idea, but right now it takes a bit of digging to figure out what the mod actually does, which undercuts any goals beyond serving as a hot-fix for Han farming upgrades (which itself is really important)

Ok, thanks--this is helpful. But I spent a few minutes looking and wasn't able to easily find it. I now see where it was at, but it not intuitively evident.

Just a suggestion that maybe that OP should list what changes were made to each version of the mod. Something like the below. This will allow players to see what actually changes and help determine whether a change is actually desirable. Changes Made 0.26.1 Fixed Han field upgrades by... 0.26.2 [Fill]

Or revert to old system with longer build times. Ptol plays the same as every other civ except it is easier. There is zero trade off, which makes it broken.

@wraitii I think the explanation above seems possible. Rams don’t seem overall quicker or slower to me. I have noticed, on occasion, that rams do very slow zigs and zags through obstacles, though It’s still the early days on the alpha, but. aside from Han, nothing stands out as major being a major change or huge imbalance. I’m sure we’ll notice stuff as time goes on, but I’m starting to feel more comfortable with overall balance, which means we should (hopefully) be able to implement more new features/bigger changes soon. It would also be nice if in the next alpha we cleaned up some of the other lingering problems that we know exist but haven’t been addressed yet (I.e. making heroes more balanced across civs, making wonders useful, etc). Overall, this feels like a boring (but needed) update for most old civs, a decent facelift for Persians (credit to @borg_ there) and, of course, a huge update with Han.

I’m not sure how I would feel. My main concern would be siege, which could always be carved out. I don’t think it would hugely change the game because I doubt people wait for reinforcement units to bunch up and be put into formation

Can it be downloaded within the game? Some mods got that in a23 and that really helped adoption another big problem is that people want to download mods, but don’t know where. Players with link the mod in MP chat/lobby, but there is no link feature that allows players to copy text. As a result, players see a 100 character link and give up. A /link command, like autociv has, would help get over this hurdle

Related, one of the biggest problems with moving with formations is that the units move at the speed of the slowest unit in the formation. Maybe it would make sense to change that to the speed of the fastest unit in formation.

Yeah, heroes are super imbalanced across civs. Some civs have 3 great heroes. Some civs none. with that said, formation hero is the best in game if used correctly.

you should always have a hero. They’re stronger than normal unit and don’t count against pop limits. Separately, I think heroes should all be radius based. Formations apply to a potentially unlimited number of units while at the same time being potentially under inclusive of units walking directly through a “formation.” They require players to engage in an annoying “tap formation” button mashing in order to derive the hero benefit. formations should be good on their own, and not good because of something else.