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Genava55

===[TASK]=== Current issues with Celtic units and guideline for the next

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10 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

image.png.a7072249d5fe89337b393063ebbc3f73.png

I was wondering since we were talking about pigments some time ago, aren't those colors too bright ? The image saturation is not helping either.

Did they have those crested helmets ?

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14 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

I was wondering since we were talking about pigments some time ago, aren't those colors too bright ? The image saturation is not helping either.

The pigments used by Franck Mathieu (it is one of his re-enacted Cisalpine warrior for one of his book) are totally natural. By natural, I mean based on products you can find in the nature and very little chemistry involved (heating, mixing etc.). Is it historically accurate? Maybe not. Some products, although natural, are difficult to get depending of the region, like some specific minerals. Did they were enough trade to get them? We don't have enough evidence for this yet. The colors from this re-enacted warrior is a bit exaggerated by the saturation of the numeric picture yes indeed. Moreover, the pigments are fresh and everything is in a good state, little used. It is maybe the main problem with natural pigments: their durability. In fact it is really easy to get any color from natural plants and minerals, even purple. The problem is that their color and bright doesn't stay long with the humidity. The best and overpriced pigments were the ones that stay longer. Then yes, the colors are general too bright on re-enactors.

27 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Did they have those crested helmets ?

In this case, a Cisalpine warrior, it is really possible to find this kind of crest on a Gallic warrior. There was quite a few Italic equipments found in the burials of Cisalpine Celts, even pilum. This kind of crest is also found on Celtiberian pottery. Probably they were not common on the whole continent for the Gauls.

The attested typical Gallic crest are these:

image.jpeg.2f34985bc39a01b7e6f7539612fdb125.jpeg

image.png.9dacf99bb7ce855f9e6e76ab331bea21.png

And very probably these kinds:

image.png.4f8f2f8d218c9cfe9972273b7598b7d0.png

 

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Gonna be rebaking the base wooden textures because i noticed some of the shields has the center of the shield a bit further than others, so i'll be making them again by this guide ive made for them to be more precise:

Spoiler

celtic_shields_uv.png

 

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Hi, thanks for providing evidence on the iron scabbards. I feel more confident that you're right given the circumstances of not having found any leather or wood-core scabbards.

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37 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Love this, but where is the player color? :) 

Im not very good with 2D programs, the artist behind shields after i'll bake the base shape and props is @wackyserious thats why i'm leaving all the layers.

I would like to deliver all this new brit/gaul modifications to Alpha 24 with some modification/addition on helmets like correction of meyrick helmet name.

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@Genava55 how long is the scabbard? and swords.

Spoiler

image.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.png

i'm not sure i would add more details to the scabbard since can't be properly seen from afar.

but going from this wooden triangle to a properly scabbard seems like an improvement.

Spoiler

image.png

 

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5 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

how long is the scabbard? and swords.

Between fifty and sixty centimeters for the scabbard and the blade is the average in middle La Tène. The Kirkburn sword of the Britons is a sixty cm scabbard for example. Thus the one you did should be ok with a sixty cm. Late La Tène swords can reach easily 80 centimeters.

Edit: I think it is not necessary to make different scabbards for the Celts. In the game, it is hard to see that much the details as you said. You can keep it like this if you want. Just move it to the right side. 

5 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

i'm not sure i would add more details to the scabbard since can't be properly seen from afar.

No need for more details. 

5 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

but going from this wooden triangle to a properly scabbard seems like an improvement.

Clearly yes, your model is nice. Better than I expected for this resolution. Bravo. 

2 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Scabbard has to be on the other side btw 

Yep, he is right. Celts carry their sword on the right side. 

Edited by Genava55

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4 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

Should i'll proceed with Spears or leave the ones as they are?

From what I see there (a screenshoot of wackyserious), the spearhead seems correct. Is there only one?
image.png.af142be8b80cbd4138ba3517fd4b6c79.png

From my point of view, it is not very important, I have the feeling that most of the people won't notice a change on this aspect. If someone thinks it is good to add more variation, you can do one of the bigger spearhead or another spearhead you find interesting. From the schema you quoted or from these reconstitution:

Spoiler

image.png.d473118b589e027081577c122527c41a.png

image.png.443a36dcea024e26b85ba5cdb32e80b4.pngimage.png.68819a65890f23fd907e929ec8f4f3e9.png

 

 

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1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

From my point of view, it is not very important, I have the feeling that most of the people won't notice a change on this aspect.

In my opinion, the more detail the better. I can assure you that there are plenty of people who notice and revel in the details of this game. I'm one of them. The more detail an artist is willing to put into it, the better, as long as it doesn't cause too much extra lag. But computers and processors are evolving by leaps and bounds and Pyrogenesis is an ever evolving project. Some of the older models are starting to look outdated, so it's better to always strive for the highest level of detail that's currently feasible, which will help the longevity of the models, as well as the game itself. 

Edited by Sundiata
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@stanislas69 Made the orles as props to reduce amount of textures needed (Yes i guess i would end making the whole shields modular at somepoint :P).

Spoiler

image.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.png

i imagine shield orles would be used only by elite and champions shields.

also the texture is a plain so any modder feeling like they want an orle for their shields just adjust the mesh and the uv to the shield shape and done. No more duplicate textures for shield with metal border.

Files with all latest changes:Celtic_Shields.7z

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1 hour ago, Alexandermb said:

Files with all latest changes:Celtic_Shields.7z

Forgot to change the texture names on shield_E and shield_C.

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Maybe angle it back slightly? 

Spoiler

image.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.png

X = Actual scabbard, the modified is on the Left slightly modified

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While changes unit roster messes with gameplay (and this is a sensitive topic, altough we all could agree that the two handed sword champ should be changed), what we know about the unit models and textures? 

The teams aproves them and they will be implemented for the next alpha?@stanislas69 @Alexandermb

Offtopic 1, but related to art, what about remaining placeholders for seleucids and ptolemies (arab javeliner, camel archer variations, judean slinger IRC)?

Offtopic 2, but related to historicity, IMHO, Skiritai commando should be renamed to Skiritai runner (commando refers to a modern unit)

(It's the way to avoid multiple short topics) 

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14 hours ago, av93 said:

While changes unit roster messes with gameplay (and this is a sensitive topic, altough we all could agree that the two handed sword champ should be changed), what we know about the unit models and textures? 

Maybe it should be possible to test it first before to apply it to a new alpha. As I said, I am motivated to find solutions to enhance the gameplay. Historical accuracy is not something always opposite to the gameplay. Any way, clearly the gameplay of the Celtic factions will change significantly however it is not an issue but a necessity I think. Currently the two factions are very similar.

14 hours ago, av93 said:

The teams aproves them and they will be implemented for the next alpha?

How this process is performed? The approbation I mean.

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By the way, I did some description for the rosters (first page, first post). It is just a sketch for the moment, I don't know if we should add other helmets for the Britons (see Britons thread). Here it is:

Gauls roster:

  • Village
    • Swordsman - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line). 
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest or tunic / Cape or no cape / Long shield without shield protection
      • Advanced => Berru or montefortino / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest or tunic / Long shield with shield boss
      • Elite => Ciumesti or montefortino / Trousers / Cape or no cape / Leather cuirass / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection
    • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter)
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest or tunic / No cape / Medium wicker shield
      • Advanced => No helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest or tunic / Medium wooden shield without shield protection
      • Elite => Berru or montefortino helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest or tunic / Medium wooden shield with shield boss
    • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
      • Basic => No helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest or tunic / Long shield but with shield boss
      • Advanced => Berru or montefortino helmet / Trousers / Cape or no cape / Leather cuirass / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection
      • Elite => Port, Alesia or Boé helmet / Trousers / Cape or no cape / Chain mail or Leather cuirass / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection
  • Town
    • Champion naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?)  
      • General => Ciumesti or montefortino helmet / Naked / Cape or no cape / Medium or long shield with shield boss
    • Spearman - Ambactos (who-is-around, attested word from Caesar for Gallic retinue and clients). 
      • Basic => No helmet but leather or textile cap  / Trousers / Tunic / No cape / Long shield without shield protection
      • Advanced => No helmet but leather or textile cap / Trousers / Tunic / No cape / Long shield with shield boss
      • Elite => Alesia or Port helmet / Trousers / Cape or no cape / Chain mail / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection
    • Slinger - Selgos (hunter).
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest / No cape / No shield
      • Advanced => No helmet / Trousers / Naked chest / No cape / Small rectangular shield
      • Elite => No helmet but leather or textile cap / Trousers / Tunic / No cape / Small rectangular shield
  • City
    • Champion sword horseman - Comaterecos (patrician)
      • General => Alesia, Mihovo, Boé or Foret helmet / Trousers / Cape / Chain mail / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection
    • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers. Upgrade for the slinger!
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest / No cape / No shield
      • Advanced => No helmet but leather or textile cap / Trousers / Tunic / No cape / No shield
      • Elite => Port helmet  / Trousers / Tunic / Cape / No shield
    • Champion Lance cavalry - Epouanos (horse-killer). Anti-cavalry special unit. 
      • General => Need research and discuss. Need to check if we add other champions.

Britons roster:

  • Village
    • Spearman  - Catucos (combatant)
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest and body paint / No cape / Medium shield without shield protection
      • Advanced => No helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest and body paint/ Long shield with simple shield boss
      • Elite => Coolus or Meyrick helmet / Trousers / Cape / Tunic (thick?)/ Long shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
    • Javelin skirmisher - Adretos (who runs fast, attacker).
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest and body paint / No cape / Medium shield without shield protection
      • Advanced => No helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest and body paint/ Medium shield with simple shield boss
      • Elite => Coolus or Meyrick helmet / Trousers / Cape / Tunic / Medium shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
    • Light cavalry with javelins - Marcacos (cavalryman).
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest and body paint / No cape / Medium shield with simple shield boss
      • Advanced => Coolus or Berru helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest and body paint/ Long shield with simple shield boss
      • Elite => Coolus or Meyrick helmet / Trousers / Cape / Tunic (thick?) / Long shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
  • Town
    • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger)
      • Basic => No helmet  / Trousers / Naked chest and body paint / No cape / Small shield without shield protection
      • Advanced => No helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest and body paint/ Small shield with simple shield boss
      • Elite => Coolus or Meyrick helmet / Trousers / Cape / Tunic / Medium shield with simple shield boss
    • Lance cavalry - Epossos (horseman, raider or "knight").
      • Basic => Mill Hill Headband / Trousers / Naked chest and body paint / No cape / Long shield with simple shield boss
      • Advanced => Coolus or Berru helmet / Trousers / Cape / Tunic (thick?)/ Long shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
      • Elite => Coolus or Meyrick helmet / Trousers / Cape / Chain Mail / Long shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
    • Swordsman - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and the Picts are described fighting naked.
      • Basic => No helmet / Trousers or naked / Naked chest and body paint / No cape / Small shield without shield protection
      • Advanced => Mill Hill Headband / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest and body paint / Medium rectangular shield without shield protection
      • Elite => Coolus or Meyrick helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest and body paint / Long shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
    • War-Dogs - Agrocuna (battle/bloody/killer dog)
  • City
    • Champion chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
      • General => Berru or Meyrick helmet / Trousers / Cape / Naked chest and body paint or Tunic (thick?)/ Long shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
    • Champion swordsman - Argos (battle champion, noble)
      • General => Mill Hill Headband or Berru helmet / Trousers / Cape / Chain Mail/ Long shield with complex shield boss and orle protection
    • Champion skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion).  I propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent. 
      • General => No helmet / Long gaelic dress / Cape / Medium rectangular shield with shield protection
Edited by Genava55
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22 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

How this process is performed? The approbation I mean.

Do you see Leonidas pushing the Persian guy over the edge ? Just like that.

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