Introducing the Official community mod for 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant

[Player of 0AD]

I created a poll about this new version:

 

[Fabius]

Good evening, been a while, looks like good things been happening  

Where can I download the latest community mod please? 

[Acanthis]

11 hours ago, Fabius said:

Good evening, been a while, looks like good things been happening  

Where can I download the latest community mod please? 

Use the in-game mod selection tool under Options

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I figured I would assemble some of the ideas I have come up with/seen in the multiplayer lobby.

Issues with building arrows:

• CC has too many arrows/too much firepower, especially for village phase. Its basically a fort with less hp.
• Sentry towers are overused, especially for denying wood lines early on.
• Turtling is more prevalent, making it more difficult to push with or without siege.

change options for building arrows (there is a lot of them, so some subset of these would be good):

• Decrease CC "max arrows" currently this number is 23, which is 1 less than for fortresses.
• Decrease CC range from 60 meters to 55 or 50 meters.
• Decrease sentry tower base range by 10 meters to 50m.
• Increase sentry tower cost by 25 stone. (change upgrade cost to defense tower too)
• All buildings with arrows: Decrease pierce damage or fire rate, increase default arrows.
  • The idea here is to make garrisoning less impactful for building effectiveness, keeping the un-garrisoned performance the same. Currently a tower with 5 garrisoned units does 6x the damage of the empty tower.
• back to random arrows except when focused.

Issues with melee rebalance:

• melee units balloon in strength when ranked up.
• fights are too quick, units die too quickly.
• anti-cavalry bonus damage is too strong.
• Buildings are 12% stronger vs hack.
• dogs are op.
• Rams and siege too easy to kill with melee (already been an issue pre-26.6)

Change options for melee rebalance:

• Remove armor or damage bonus for melee infantry rank ups.
• Increase melee experience to rank up to match ranged units: (100 -> 125 xp for infantry).
• Add 5% or 10% hp to all units
• Slightly reduce anti-cavalry bonus, maybe just for spear cavalry.
• Use +4 hack armor instead of +5 hack armor for buildings.
• Reduce dog hp (armor is already 1,1) or reduce dog damage
• Siege +1 or +2 hack armor.

Other issues and solutions:

• Elephants are not very useful. Not good enough vs buildings to make their purchase worthwhile.
  • Increase in direct crush, maybe also slight increase in splash attack.
• Iphicrates is OP
  • Port a27 iphicrates nerf to community mod: range aura, +2 armor instead of +3.
• Catapult splash damage is negligible:
  • Increase splash damage OR increase splash radius.

[leopard]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Sentry towers are overused, especially for denying wood lines early on.

I think this is needed else cavalry can easily rush, I want towers strong, else what is the point of making the purchase.
I will reduce cost of sentry towers. make it easy to capture in p1 will be good for the rusher.
I personally beginning to like this mod and OP players are also doing same OP stuff they were doing with a little change in strategy.
also reduce cost of champs, I think 0AD needs more champion battle. winning with village phase units is not very rich feel about the game. we need more colorful battles. also it will be better if we can purchase higher rank units or purchase new techs specific to unit like in AOE4 from barracks like we do to cavalry, one more suggestion is add fire weapons to units to destroy buildings may be we can give it as an upgrade or tech from fort. this new feature can counter the turtle players.

we should counter turtle using a new tech, making towers useless is not a good way, people will stop using them, we better introduce a new tech like fire attack by units to take down buildings like it is in age of empires

Edited February 6, 2024 by leopard

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

• back to random arrows except when focused.

The more I play, the more I think this is the answer. Not sure if it is necessary for towers but I am leaning towards no. 

 

 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Issues with melee rebalance:

I don't think the meta has really been figured out yet. I think we still need to wait to see how things shake out. With that said...the below are all things that I was independently thinking. 

 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

• Increase melee experience to rank up to match ranged units: (100 -> 125 xp for infantry).
• Add 5% or 10% hp to all units
• Slightly reduce anti-cavalry bonus, maybe just for spear cavalry.
• Use +4 hack armor instead of +5 hack armor for buildings.
•  
• Siege +1 or +2 hack armor.

I also think there is a general problem with how champions aren't being made as much anymore. I like how melee is being made more now. But that diversity has come at the cost of less cav and champs. Personally, both neither system is better than the other for me. But I do think we could make the current system better to address the cav and champ issues. 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2024 by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I would say I have seen less cavalry champions and more infantry champions.

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

CC has too many arrows/too much firepower, especially for village phase. Its basically a fort with less hp

It could be good by reducing the number and then adding with a technology like it was before.Let players invest in improving their city.

Settlement Watch Add arrows to the village/city.

This way no one will complain.

 

[Fabius]

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Catapult splash damage is negligible:

• Increase splash damage OR increase splash radius.

 

Regarding this I would suggest an increase in the radius, perhaps even as a tech, flaming munitions for instance. The reasoning for bigger radius over higher damage is that even with low damage an area attack can indirectly snipe low hp units which is highly useful for a massed battlefield

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Elephants are not very useful. Not good enough vs buildings to make their purchase worthwhile.

• Increase in direct crush, maybe also slight increase in splash attack

 

Exactly elephants must do a lot of damage(splash) in combat. Even moving should do damage.

[Lion.Kanzen]

22 hours ago, leopard said:

also reduce cost of champs, I think 0AD needs more champion battle. winning with village phase units is not very rich feel about the game. we need more colorful battles. also it will be better if we can purchase higher rank units or purchase new techs specific to unit like in AOE4 from barracks like we do to cavalry, one more suggestion is add fire weapons to units to destroy buildings may be we can give it as an upgrade or tech from fort. this new feature can counter the turtle players.

I've been talking about fire damage to buildings for a while now.

 

With torches and units carrying vases of tar.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

21 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

The more I play, the more I think this is the answer. Not sure if it is necessary for towers but I am leaning towards no. 

 

 

I don't think the meta has really been figured out yet. I think we still need to wait to see how things shake out. With that said...the below are all things that I was independently thinking. 

 

I also think there is a general problem with how champions aren't being made as much anymore. I like how melee is being made more now. But that diversity has come at the cost of less cav and champs. Personally, both neither system is better than the other for me. But I do think we could make the current system better to address the cav and champ issues. 

 

 

Interestingly, quite a few players particularly Havran have argued that champions have become meta. I'm not saying I agree. In fact my argument so far about balance is that its actually pretty good. It is truly a weird situation to have almost every player claim one thing or another is OP with some certainty, all while having very little agreement. Clearly the meta has been more elusive than everyone thinks. 

If there is any one thing that I think most people can agree is now OP it is spartans and athenians, the reasons being several bonuses and heroes that combine particularly well with the melee rebalance:

• iphricates (previously determined to be OP): seems to be more important now that melee units have less armor
• Leonidas: the damage addition to spearmen is much more significant now that the base rate is increased
• Skiritai commandos start rank 3 which is now a much stronger advantage over rank 1
• hoplite tradition: improved rank up speed means hoplites can reach rank 2/3 in one good fight, fast enough to make a big difference in the fight in which they rank up.

Combining these civ specific bonuses with the melee rebalance has led to melee units from these civs being too strong. I think removing armor from melee rankup bonuses, and nerfing iphricates would solve these concerns effectively.

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

20 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I would say I have seen less cavalry champions and more infantry champions.

Splash damage, cavalry has trample advantage.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Interestingly, quite a few players particularly Havran have argued that champions have become meta. I'm not saying I agree. In fact my argument so far about balance is that its actually pretty good. It is truly a weird situation to have almost every player claim one thing or another is OP with some certainty, all while having very little agreement. Clearly the meta has been more elusive than everyone thinks. 

If there is any one thing that I think most people can agree is now OP it is spartans and athenians, the reasons being several bonuses and heroes that combine particularly well with the melee rebalance:

• iphricates (previously determined to be OP): seems to be more important now that melee units have less armor
• Leonidas: the damage addition to spearmen is much more significant now that the base rate is increased
• Skiritai commandos start rank 3 which is now a much stronger advantage over rank 1
• hoplite tradition: improved rank up speed means hoplites can reach rank 2/3 in one good fight, fast enough to make a big difference in the fight in which they rank up.

Combining these civ specific bonuses with the melee rebalance has led to melee units from these civs being too strong. I think removing armor from melee rankup bonuses, and nerfing iphricates would solve these concerns effectively.

Iphri already got a nerf. It just isn’t in the mod yet. 
 

I also think we should consider just a general nerf to melee attack dmg instead of increasing health. It will have the same impact of making battles last longer without further nerfing range units. Melee is stronger now because once they get to range units they really rip them apart. Giving melee more health will let melee do that more effectively. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@chrstgtr The reason I suggested all units + hp was because people argue units in general die too fast. 

If that issue is specifically ranged units dying too fast to melee, we could either give ranged units a health buff or decrease melee damage a little. I would prefer increasing ranged health, but a smallish damage nerf could also be fine.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@chrstgtr The reason I suggested all units + hp was because people argue units in general die too fast. 

If that issue is specifically ranged units dying too fast to melee, we could either give ranged units a health buff or decrease melee damage a little. I would prefer increasing ranged health, but a smallish damage nerf could also be fine.

The problem with changing hp is that it has a lot of downstream effects. It changes building/unit balance, inf/cav balance, melee/range balance, etc. It just seems a lot cleaner to to nerf the melee attack dmg. Otherwise, we just create more problems for ourselves. 

Also, the changes of the melee patch suggest that changes to melee attack dmg are the problem. The melee patch gave a major buff to melee BUT gave a nerf to range attack dmg. That means units are dying faster because of melee's buff despite range's nerf. 

The problem has to be that melee are killing range too quickly. The old meta had melee killing each other in the middle before breaking through and slowly killing the range. The new meta still has melee killing each other in the middle before breaking through and quickly killing the range. Sniping is present in both metas but that doesn't change anything. Battles are only ending quicker once there is a breakthrough and melee are able to rip through the range. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

30 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

That means units are dying faster because of melee's buff despite range's nerf.

the change to net damage across all units is definitely smaller than the net change to units durability (melee lost armor). The driver of any net ttk change is because of the reduction of melee armor. Before this mod, battles felt slower because either before or after sniping there was this damage sponge you had to kill.

I think one reason why melee seem to kill ranged units faster is because they rank up while killing them and this increases their damage, hp, and armor further. I think further changes to melee/ranged balance aren't clear, but reduction to the rank up bonuses of melee is a clear change.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

the change to net damage across all units is definitely smaller than the net change to units durability (melee lost armor). The driver of any net ttk change is because of the reduction of melee armor. Before this mod, battles felt slower because either before or after sniping there was this damage sponge you had to kill.

Disagree. But assuming you're right then armor should increase. 

The underlying point is that changing hp will certainly have downriver effects that are unintended and will cause a cascade of imbalances. The underlying cause of quicker battles (whether that is armor or melee dmg) should be addressed instead of changing yet another variable. 

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I think one reason why melee seem to kill ranged units faster is because they rank up while killing them and this increases their damage, hp, and armor further. I think further changes to melee/ranged balance aren't clear, but reduction to the rank up bonuses of melee is a clear change.

I don't think anyone disagrees on this and @real_tabasco_sauce hit it on the head when he said that melee rank up was an old hot fix for melee balance that didn't actually fix the underlying melee balance problem. 

I've always said that melee was strong against range and that the problem was melee's inability to reach range units. All of these other melee advantages v. range get enlarged when melee units actually get engage range units.  

[Atrik]

It's getting confusing as what the re-balance was about. Right now cavs die fast into melees with spears but they have to be rewarded when striking ranged units. The effects of losing units very fast when facing counters goes both ways and the use of ranged unit seems to not have been put apart with the mod.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Yes @chrstgtr melee has always been strong vs ranged units, but crucial difference is that before melee was strong because of its armor. Instead of killing the ranged units it’s just that they would take a long time to die.

Then there was a ton of time for the ranged player to retreat.

now, the difference is the melee units still die in a similar time, but can actually get kills. The issue is perhaps that they do this too fast.

i think a lot of players are not retreating their ranged units because they are used to the ranged units not dying so fast.

but yes I think for sure we should either remove armor bonus or damage bonus from melee rank ups.

[Atrik]

10 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If there is any one thing that I think most people can agree is now OP it is spartans and athenians, the reasons being several bonuses and heroes that combine particularly well with the melee rebalance:

• iphricates (previously determined to be OP): seems to be more important now that melee units have less armor
• Leonidas: the damage addition to spearmen is much more significant now that the base rate is increased
• Skiritai commandos start rank 3 which is now a much stronger advantage over rank 1
• hoplite tradition: improved rank up speed means hoplites can reach rank 2/3 in one good fight, fast enough to make a big difference in the fight in which they rank up.

+ Steel Working tech.

Make sens to address locally the things that definitively op. Not even sure everybody would agree with all the points above. Strong combos aren't necessarily too op.

[leopard]

12 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

On 07/02/2024 at 12:50 AM, leopard said:

 

I've been talking about fire damage to buildings for a while now.

 

With torches and units carrying vases of tar.

yes I think 0AD cannot ignore fire damage too long. eventually it will be added in game. 

[Stan`]

The question is not when but by who.

Ideally we'd have bb' secondary attack, so that ranged units can attack with crappy melee weapons, and maybe we extend that to change weapons depending on target classes.

As for fire itself we support it through status effects (e.g. maurya guard and iber cavalry)

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

The question is not when but by who.

Ideally we'd have bb' secondary attack, so that ranged units can attack with crappy melee weapons, and maybe we extend that to change weapons depending on target classes.

As for fire itself we support it through status effects (e.g. maurya guard and iber cavalry)

Apart from the secondary attack, have you guys already reviewed how that fire mechanic will work?

bb still active?

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Apart from the secondary attack, have you guys already reviewed how that fire mechanic will work?

Fire is already in the game. As for balancing no. And for bb's activity I'd say no