Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[real_tabasco_sauce]

46 minutes ago, Pepre said:

How to remove ressources icons from mini map?

settings -> options -> session -> deselect minimap icons

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I think in late game (not raiding, but general battles) people often complain about cavalry being OP, but fail to realize that the primary unit in those cavalry compositions is skirmcav. I think we can nerf cavalry overall by prioritizing this unit. It has 2.2x the hp, +2 pierce attack, and +2 hack armor from skirmisher infantry, even ignoring the speed advantage it has like many cavalry players do (ignoring their speed advantage is already a red flag for the unit). Skirmcav is the most OP unit that everyone accepts in gameplay to be balanced.

I have a problem with cav raids. Many top level 1v1s are dominated by cav spam and the game ends (or is all but already determined) before players ever make it to p2 or p3. I think this is undesirable. 

Skirm cav is OP, but I also have a problem with archer cav (probably the best unit in the game right now when used correctly), and sword cav too. A mass of any of those units wins games and spearmen inf can't counter those units. In short, I don't think the game should purely be cav spam, which is without a doubt the best strategy right now.

[chrstgtr]

14 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

IMO, better to have that tanking power be the less damage-dealing unit, hence the original suggestion.

Anyway, I guess @chrstgtr is right, we need some nerf to cavalry in general, and there is no better way to experiment than with a mod.

So, cavalry have 4 advantages (mobility, damage, armor (generally), and HP) to infantry and 1 setback: not being able to gather resources.

From a principle standpoint, I think the main advantage to cavalry should be their mobility, with any HP and armor stats being secondary. Their mobility is already very strong when used to its full potential (skilled player) and in my opinion, this is almost enough to justify their inability to gather.

if we want a wholesale cav nerf, making damage equal to their infantry counterparts is a start. Changing armor would effect their balance with infantry and should probably be avoided. Mobility is what makes cavalry cavalry, so ideally this should stay the same (although i would support making infantry a tiny bit faster).

So I think damage and health are what should be lowered, who agrees with this?

now, we could make all cav do the same damage as their infantry counterparts, which could be a good start. Perhaps we would then want to give a "mounted vantage point" damage increase of 10% to melee cav, but not ranged cav.

As for health, currently they are hard-coded to 100 for ranged cav and 160 for melee cav. How about instead, we give cavalry in general a 30 hp "mount bonus" compared to infantry such that ranged cav is 80 and melee cav is 130.

From there, we could then balance as needed (like how I suggested with the +1 armor for spearcav, -1 armor for swordcav)

how does this strategy sound?

My main problem with cav is that they don't die even when they should (i.e. running straight through inf and fighting spears head on). I think that is a direct result of their speed (ability to escape fights and to get to fights quickly) and their health (they might get hit once when running through a pocket of men but then keep running so the damage doesn't do enough to kill them). As a result, I don't mind that cav do extra dmg. 

Making inf, specifically spears faster, would be a step in the right direction. (I think spears and swords should be faster anyways bc of their lack of range). 

I would rather change health than armor because that ensures an even change across all units as opposed to just hack or pierce units. Otherwise, a -1 nerf to both hack and pierce might result in one type of attack becoming relatively stronger. Also promotions make extra HP a snowball problem. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Making inf, specifically spears faster, would be a step in the right direction. (I think spears and swords should be faster anyways bc of their lack of range). 

yes, I also find that it takes painfully long to get infantry armies where they need to be. Ok, I could start to put these ideas into a branch, which could be a merge request for later.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

oh, also, what are your thoughts on the contribution of the cavalry health and cavalry speed upgrades. In my eyes these are basically blanket buffs to cavalry as a whole. (I already am working on a much better replacement anyway)

Edited October 27, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

3 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

yes, I also find that it takes painfully long to get infantry armies where they need to be. Ok, I could start to put these ideas into a branch, which could be a merge request for later.

Yeah, while I think this cav nerf is needed, it will be a bit of a meta shift (cav spam-->to something else, hopefully more strategic). So I think this merge, if it happens, should be done by itself so we can really know its impact

 

[chrstgtr]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

oh, also, what are your thoughts on the contribution of the cavalry health and cavalry speed upgrades. In my eyes these are basically blanket buffs to cavalry as a whole. (I already am working on a much better replacement anyway)

I'm fine with them for now. My problem is the base level health/speed advantage because those occur in p1 through p3. 

I think the upgrades are better as differentiators (i.e., when Persia was truly a cav civ in a23 because they had the special health upgrade while most other civs did not whereas now Persia's cav is nothing special), but I think the boat has sailed on this one. 

[Fabius]

Where can I find a list of all the current implemented changes in the community mod?

[Fabius]

On 28/10/2022 at 1:31 AM, chrstgtr said:

My main problem with cav is that they don't die even when they should (i.e. running straight through inf and fighting spears head on). I think that is a direct result of their speed (ability to escape fights and to get to fights quickly) and their health (they might get hit once when running through a pocket of men but then keep running so the damage doesn't do enough to kill them). As a result, I don't mind that cav do extra dmg. 

Making inf, specifically spears faster, would be a step in the right direction. (I think spears and swords should be faster anyways bc of their lack of range). 

I would rather change health than armor because that ensures an even change across all units as opposed to just hack or pierce units. Otherwise, a -1 nerf to both hack and pierce might result in one type of attack becoming relatively stronger. Also promotions make extra HP a snowball problem. 

I am in agreement that a speed buff to melee infantry would be very nice. I mentioned elsewhere regarding naked fanatics that their speed makes them the best melee infantry currently. 

You can work around the snowball effect of health buffs by simply having the multiplication use the base starting health rather than the current running total.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, Fabius said:

Where can I find a list of all the current implemented changes in the community mod?

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/commits/main

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I think we have enough votes to conclude that the ram change and the ptolemy, Iphicrates nerfs do not have enough support.

@wraitii does a November 1 release of the next version sound feasible/ideal? Seems like the second round of the tournament will happen soon, so it would be nice to release in time.

Edited October 30, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Adeimantos]

I submitted a merge request, but got a message saying "pipeline #681930164 has failed." What does that mean?

For cavalry, I'd recommend dropping jav cavalry fire rate to 1.5 seconds, and having a horse housing system where you need a corral for each ten horses just like you need houses for units.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

24 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

I submitted a merge request, but got a message saying "pipeline #681930164 has failed." What does that mean?

For cavalry, I'd recommend dropping jav cavalry fire rate to 1.5 seconds, and having a horse housing system where you need a corral for each ten horses just like you need houses for units.

I think the pipeline failing is just because we wait for the merge requests to be approved. I could be wrong here tho.

I already have a branch made for balancing cav vs infantry and I'll add it once the next version of the mod releases. You can see the details here:

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/commit/e33bc27f79c7e5f3d94ea83c363e711272d33f42

It basically makes reconfigures cavalry balance from scratch:

1. Cav damage equals their infantry counterparts,
2. cav get a 40% health bonus compared to inf (melee: 140hp, ranged: 70hp),
3. infantry +0.5 walkspeed (effects skirms a little more, pikes a little less).

I know this is a huge hit to cavalry, but this is intended on being a starting point for balance. We may need to adjust counter-cavalry damage multipliers and perhaps melee cavalry damage. (I could see a 20% or so "mount bonus" being worthwhile for melee cav). Notice that instead of making cav slower, I made infantry faster.

[Adeimantos]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think the pipeline failing is just because we wait for the merge requests to be approved. I could be wrong here tho.

I already have a branch made for balancing cav vs infantry and I'll add it once the next version of the mod releases. You can see the details here:

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/commit/e33bc27f79c7e5f3d94ea83c363e711272d33f42

It basically makes reconfigures cavalry balance from scratch:

1. Cav damage equals their infantry counterparts,
2. cav get a 40% health bonus compared to inf (melee: 140hp, ranged: 70hp),
3. infantry +0.5 walkspeed (effects skirms a little more, pikes a little less).

I know this is a huge hit to cavalry, but this is intended on being a starting point for balance. We may need to adjust counter-cavalry damage multipliers and perhaps melee cavalry damage. (I could see a 20% or so "mount bonus" being worthwhile for melee cav). Notice that instead of making cav slower, I made infantry faster.

Not quite how I would rebalance it, but would work. With these changes maybe the spearmen attack bonus could be reduced. Also remember that infantry have the advantage of being able to pay for themselves by gathering resources.

[Nobbi]

Thanks for work and afford for the changes and also for the poll. For next poll please separate the questions for specific units in two different questions. I like Iphycrates beeing less strong, but I am not sure about Ptolemy. I don't see people playing him much, so I think he is not to strong. So, I cant give a clear answer to the question...

Also I like healers being cheaper, but I am uncertain if I like healers costing metal...

This could also be different questions.

[Fabius]

Overall I like this setup and the voting on whether to include things or not. It seems to have gotten things done quickly, which is good.

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

If voting is even between yes and no, then I think it makes sense to err on the side of adding content. What do you think?

[Fabius]

24 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If voting is even between yes and no, then I think it makes sense to err on the side of adding content. What do you think?

I would say drop the third option of "no opinion" as its not at all helpful for decision making. A straight yes or no is all that is necessary. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, Fabius said:

I would say drop the third option of "no opinion" as its not at all helpful for decision making. A straight yes or no is all that is necessary. 

I do not agree.

[chrstgtr]

2 minutes ago, Fabius said:

I would say drop the third option of "no opinion" as its not at all helpful for decision making. A straight yes or no is all that is necessary. 

The root cause is that a lot of patches have multiple components. People select the 3rd option when they are split on a proposal. An easy fix would be to break proposals down into their constituent parts (i.e., one proposal to nerf ptol her and one proposal for athens hero instead of combining both into one) and then making the poll binary. 

31 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If voting is even between yes and no, then I think it makes sense to err on the side of adding content. What do you think?

There's a lot of changes already. I would suggestion caution. Change by itself isn't good. And when there are a bunch of variables it is very difficult to tell what one proposal does and doesn't do. For example, the cav nerf could actually not have a big impact because smaller CC ranges significantly slow booms, which makes rushing (i.e., cav) stronger. I don't know if any of that hypothetical is true right now, but it's possible and I wouldn't be able to confidently terse out an explanation if it did occur. 

------

Right now, we have more than enough support for several proposals to implement them. I think we should do that and see how it impacts the game/how people like them. If those proposals are good, we should actually make tickets to implement them for a27. Then we can figure out what next changes to do. 

[Fabius]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I do not agree.

Alright, how then is a no opinion stance going to help. you just asked whether we count "no opinion" as a "yes" or  "no" , if that is the case you have no third option, simply an implied yes or an implied no.

[Fabius]

1 minute ago, chrstgtr said:

The root cause is that a lot of patches have multiple components. People select the 3rd option when they are split on a proposal. An easy fix would be to break proposals down into their constituent parts (i.e., one proposal to nerf ptol her and one proposal for athens hero instead of combining both into one) and then making the poll binary.

I see, fair point

3 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Right now, we have more than enough support for several proposals to implement them. I think we should do that and see how it impacts the game/how people like them. If those proposals are good, we should actually make tickets to implement them for a27. Then we can figure out what next changes to do. 

I like this plan 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

28 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

The root cause is that a lot of patches have multiple components.

yeah I think its good practice to make patches as concise as possible. So ptolemy nerf and iphicrates nerf probably should have been two patches.  its generally good practice, but where to draw the line is debatable. For example, I have both Themistocles and Pericles in the same merge request because they are both weak athenian heroes, and they go together. However, it might have been better off as two patches.

[chrstgtr]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

yeah I think its good practice to make patches as concise as possible. So ptolemy nerf and iphicrates nerf probably should have been two patches.  its generally good practice, but where to draw the line is debatable. For example, I have both Themistocles and Pericles in the same merge request because they are both weak athenian heroes, and they go together. However, it might have been better off as two patches.

Yeah, it's easier said than done.

Also, we don't want too many options because then it gets overwhelming. Implementing some of these, showing proof of concept for the adopted items, and implementing for a27 could help with the winnowing the total number of open items. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

By the way, if you are curious, I updated the cavalry balance fork to also effect champions.

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...cavalry_balance

Also, a crossbow nerf:

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...crossbow_nerf

and a 15% increase in spear cavalry acceleration to improve chasing (even without upgrades).

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...spearcav_accel?from_project_id=36954588&straight=false

Edited November 2, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce