Introducing the Official community mod for 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, Atrik said:

It's a good think if CS cav aren't always better then inf. This counter effect is supposed to be a mitigation of cav strength instead of nerfing their speed or any stats. The way formation works make indeed hard to outmaneuver infantry back-lines with melee cavs, but they still have use cases too (mostly rushing and raiding, but forcing enemy to call formations multiple times make melee cav worth it). I like that cav remain strong and mobile, but have very hard time if they fight polearm inf.

Most of what you're describing could be fine. But it doesn't match the resource cost of cav, which is 50% more than inf. Champ melee cav, especially, is very difficult to justify the cost of if they die so quickly and cannot effectively capture/kill CCs.

Cav rushes will also be easier to defend (because CS cav is nerfed) and come with a heavier cost since cav cannot simply go back and go eco after a rush the way the inf can. 

Also, I don't think the bolded was ever the intended purpose. The problem was always champ cav--not CS cav. 

The community mod simply uses to blunt an instrument that nerfs all cav when a more tailored approach was necessary. 

[Atrik]

7 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Most of what you're describing could be fine. But it doesn't match the resource cost of cav, which is 50% more than inf. Champ melee cav, especially, is very difficult to justify the cost of if they die so quickly and cannot effectively capture/kill CCs.

Consider that a lot of players already expressed they wish that cavs in general get nerfed. Some ideas where to decrease speed as we're talking above but also make cs cav 2 pop and 3 for champs... Theses ideas would nerf cavs much more then making their counter actually works. I also agree with players saying that cavs should ideally be an auxiliary force of an army and rarely it's main force. So even if you invest more to make cavs, you aren't guaranteed to be able to take out a similarly sized inf army. Cavs can already choose what fights to take or not which is their core strength in the first place, and alone could justify a greater price.

 

Beside the fact cavs can hardly be caught by inf spears cav have a lot of extra hp:

• Cs melees cavs have x1.5 (1.6 with Horse breading) of melee inf
• Cs ranged cavs have x2 (x2.2 with Horse breading) of ranged inf

These hp make them tougher to projectiles, but also spears x2.5 counter was making them barley catch up with the extra hp...

 

From here I'll be in favor of making melee cavs roles more defined. Spear cav could get their damage against other cav increased, and sword cav could benefit from more pierce armor for them to be more effective when trying to kill ranged units or raid enemy base.

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

To me it’s clear that the counter alone (whether it should be 2.5x or 3x) is not enough to balance the champ cav and cs cav. In my opinion a speed nerf is needed.

[Emacz]

8 hours ago, Atrik said:

Consider that a lot of players already expressed they wish that cavs in general get nerfed. Some ideas where to decrease speed as we're talking above but also make cs cav 2 pop and 3 for champs... Theses ideas would nerf cavs much more then making their counter actually works. I also agree with players saying that cavs should ideally be an auxiliary force of an army and rarely it's main force. So even if you invest more to make cavs, you aren't guaranteed to be able to take out a similarly sized inf army. Cavs can already choose what fights to take or not which is their core strength in the first place, and alone could justify a greater price.

 

Beside the fact cavs can hardly be caught by inf spears cav have a lot of extra hp:

• Cs melees cavs have x1.5 (1.6 with Horse breading) of melee inf
• Cs ranged cavs have x2 (x2.2 with Horse breading) of ranged inf

These hp make them tougher to projectiles, but also spears x2.5 counter was making them barley catch up with the extra hp...

 

From here I'll be in favor of making melee cavs roles more defined. Spear cav could get their damage against other cav increased, and sword cav could benefit from more pierce armor for them to be more effective when trying to kill ranged units or raid enemy base.

 

Could always check out historical cav
We are trying to figure out how to represent them best historically. Agree with what you say about "auxilliary force" few of these civs used cav as the bulk of their army, if any...

[Arup]

if you wanna go historic route, then every civ should have a cap on cavalry unit as a % of total pop possible. this cap will be unique for each civ and should respect the historical army of each civ. for example, horses are not native to India. they imported them from the middle east and this horse trade was sought after. Persia, obviously, had a large cav force. Hans too, as a result of constant Xiongnu threat ammased gargantuous amount of cavalry force and so on

[Dakara]

Idea number 453 : infantery and cav same stat except speed

Make simple changes ->

Standardize cavalry and infantry. Their only difference would be their gathering and repair capacity and move speed. This would be balanced by an additional food cost of about 60%.

So now the only advantage of cavalry is speed. We remove all specific anti-cavalry counters, it a noob feature. The train time is same as infantery too.

Later we can think about giving cavalry units as already exist for the Persians with the axe.

cav cityzen example : 

50 food 50 wood / 50 HP / 1/1/0 armor  16 pierce attack 1,5 speed / attack capture 2.5 / Move speed no change

80 food 50 wood / 50HP / 1/1/0 armor 16 pierce attack 1,5 speed / attack capture 2.5 / Move speed 16.8

champ cav example : 

80 food 60 wood 80 metal /200 HP / 3/3/0 armor  16 hack attack 0.75 speed / attack capture 5 / Move speed no change

120 food 60 wood 80 metal /200 HP / 3/3/0 armor  16 hack attack 0.75 speed / attack capture 5 / Move speed 18

For civ good in cav we have a new tech : HP Cav +10% for a cost +10% cost food. Of course we delete the basic tech of life for all civ.

Resume and strategy goal :

• Make cav a strategic choice and not the best op choice.  You still have to produce more food for have a cavalry support
• Give to noob 
• Attack capture is same as infantry, train time too. Of course they will melt ! but you can runnnnn with them, choose when you want to fight.
• Delete counter feature, your natural damage without counter or multiplier should be use at good target -> more snipe and move cav where you want to maximize your damage.
• Reduces classic tactical errors and make the game more noob friendly with this infantry buff. An all-cavalry army will always be stronger than an all-cavalry army, but not in a noisy fight, the units will be equal.

There will be ways to differentiate gameplay, don't worry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dakara]

45 minutes ago, Arup said:

if you wanna go historic route, then every civ should have a cap on cavalry unit as a % of total pop possible. this cap will be unique for each civ and should respect the historical army of each civ. for example, horses are not native to India. they imported them from the middle east and this horse trade was sought after. Persia, obviously, had a large cav force. Hans too, as a result of constant Xiongnu threat ammased gargantuous amount of cavalry force and so on

Annoying idea and nothing related to historic route 

[Deicide4u]

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

Idea number 453 : infantery and cav same stat except speed

You have to kill the horse, as well as the man

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

Standardize cavalry and infantry.

So, even more blueprint-modelled units. We should strive more towards civilizational strengths and weaknesses, not just slap the same stats on everything and give them a different model.

For example, Roman infantry gets more hack armor and HP because it was that good. However, their cavalry was not good, so they get a small nerf. Spartan spear infantry is stronger (yes, I know we have a tech for this. But, so do the Athenians, who were philosophers) and faster, but it has weaker rams or something.

Also, economic bonuses should applied more liberally, to support the civilization's strengths.

[Dakara]

7 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

 

So, even more blueprint-modelled units. We should strive more towards civilizational strengths and weaknesses, not just slap the same stats on everything and give them a different model.

For example, Roman infantry gets more hack armor and HP because it was that good. However, their cavalry was not good, so they get a small nerf. Spartan spear infantry is stronger (yes, I know we have a tech for this. But, so do the Athenians, who were philosophers) and faster, but it has weaker rams or something.

Also, economic bonuses should applied more liberally, to support the civilization's strengths.

do it = kill balance lol

you know romans have free champ if melee unit upgrade level for example. I don't see the issue of blueprint-modelled units

Nothing prevent to have unique unit for each civ like fanatic, dog etc 

Edited Wednesday at 12:23 by Dakara

[TheCJ]

45 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

You have to kill the horse, as well as the man

I mean, you would try not to kill the horse, but capture it, no?

45 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

So, even more blueprint-modelled units. We should strive more towards civilizational strengths and weaknesses, not just slap the same stats on everything and give them a different model.

That sentiment is very understandable. You seem to have reached a point where you have a good understanding of the basics of most/all civilizations, hence why you notice that some units being equal for certain civs doesnt really feel right. But there is a counter-argument for more differentiation, as it is more complex, especially for newer players.

When you first pick up the game, you would be happy if you could rely on a spearman doing the same no matter which civ you are, no?

Edited Wednesday at 13:02 by TheCJ
typo

[Arup]

5 hours ago, Dakara said:

Annoying idea and nothing related to historic route 

yes, forgot to mention it's annoying and will be debated and hated by a lot BUT, they implemented this new naval system in a similar fashion so who knows 

[Seleucids]

The naval rebalance deserve its own new topic

Ideally we also get some feedback from single players who play a lot more naval than us

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Arup said:

yes, forgot to mention it's annoying and will be debated and hated by a lot BUT, they implemented this new naval system in a similar fashion so who knows 

I don't see any parallel between the naval rebalance and a cap on the number of cavalry available.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I'm glad to see all this discussion

In the future we can try some speed balancing to see how things turn out.

@Dakara I see what you are saying about cavalry, but part of balancing CS units is considering their economic roles.

I recall we discussed some naval balance stuff, maybe it was in the dedicated topic. We can certainly continue to tweak the naval balance. Scout ship to p1, also nerfing the scout ship a little, decrease fire ship wood cost. I can also add in the fix for the Kushite fire arrows technology.