Introducing the Official community mod for 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant

[real_tabasco_sauce]

12 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

One other note, I don’t think all champs becoming gimmick units is desirable. It’s ok that more than one civ has champ swords, or whatever, that function the same as another civ. With that said, having one fun unique unit can give a civ a real unique feel if it’s done right. 

Yeah im thinking like at least one unique unit per civ give or take.

[chrstgtr]

4 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Yeah im thinking like at least one unique unit per civ give or take.

Agree

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Also, "unique" doesn't have to be gimmicky. Some special aura or ability is good, while the base usage of the unit mostly still conforms to its type. So, for instance, the Iberian champ cav still has its Jav Cav usage and stats, but also its ability to damage buildings which is unique among the Jav Cav type.

Macedonian Hypaspists can be upgraded to Silver Shields. Perhaps in this mode they have a small aura that boosts nearby troops a little. In the later Macedonian kingdom, Hypaspists became administrators and officers, so this small feature could indicate that.

The Macedonian Companion Cavalry could be slightly faster than other champ cavs and have a small (10%?) attack bonus vs. infantry, but costs slightly more.

Persian Immortals can already switch between Spear and Bow. Maybe also give them a "Campaign Panoply" tech that upgrades their look (and stats) from palace guard robes to scale mail (this is in DE). And also give the player the ability to train either the melee or ranged version by default, so if they actually want the ranged version they don't always have to train the melee version first.

The Bactrian Cataphract's attack could have some splash damage. Perhaps a feature of all Cataphracts (the other being the Seleucid Cataphract).

Spartan Spartiate hoplites could give an armor boost to other hoplites nearby. I mean a very very small radius, like 3 meters, to simulate a "shield wall"/"phalanx" effect. Also, look into how DE makes the Skiritai Runner more interesting.

Brythonic Chariot could have its rider jump off when the chariot is killed. He then runs at the enemy with a sword, maybe getting a kill before himself getting killed. 

Seleucid Scythe Chariots could have a trample aura. This needs extra code, but has been desired for some time.

 

 

[Outis]

8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Spartan Spartiate hoplites could give an armor boost to other hoplites nearby. I mean a very very small radius, like 3 meters, to simulate a "shield wall"/"phalanx" effect.

This can be made so that it makes the formations useful as well

[Outis]

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Macedonian Companion Cavalry could be slightly faster than other champ cavs and have a small (10%?) attack bonus vs. infantry, but costs slightly more.

What would be super cool is to have a charge bonus on shock cavalry like the companions but i guess it is also extra code...

[TheCJ]

I agree with @BeTe that the tactical decisions you have in p2 are somewhat limited and could be expanded.
I believe it might be worth considering to add more "half-champion" units like the naked fanatics, that serve the purpose of a trained soldier rather then a citizen soldier, but don't have the equipment requirements (and according metal cost) of an actual champion.
Because at the moment, champions represent the pinnacle of soldiery a certain civilization was able to muster, while citizen soldiers are, the way they function in the game, just normal workers you gave a spear or a sword.
I believe a unit type between those two makes a lot of sense and could positively impact the tactical elements of the game aswell, as it gives players an option to actually fight a booming player (without running your own gatherers/citizen soldiers across the map and thereby sacrificing your eco) and not just raid them.
It would also somewhat negate the booming = turteling problem, as you would have access to stronger units in p2, that can pose a threat to a player that just booms, but can't gather resources themselves.

It would also have the side effect that battles might happen sooner with smaller armies, which some people might enjoy 

An alternative would be to add normal workers, that can fight notably worse than citizen soldiers, which is basically the same concept of adding a third (or fourth if you count mercenaries) type of unit, but might be easier to implement. 
If one were to add workers, they could be produced as fast as citizen soldiers are at the moment, while citizen soldiers get increased build time. That way you wouldn't need to decrease the build time of champions to make them more useful and you would slow down the game overall... (I would welcome a change like that, but I understand that others like how fast 0ad plays)

[BeTe]

I just did quick research (googleing "wildfiregames.com" for "citizen solider" term) trying to understand why we have concept of CS. 

Just as FYI, I don't suggest anything. 

more relevant:

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/40114-balancing-citizen-soldiers-cs-long-shot/

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/39378-gameplay-issue-booming-turtling/ 

a bit less relevant (imho):

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/20617-why-the-citizen-soldier-concept-is-wrong/ 

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/22017-trying-to-trace-back-the-citizen-soldier/

[Nobbi]

On 26/07/2024 at 6:47 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I'd like to keep up diversifying champion units. I think it could be cool to let the kushite axe champs be a bit cheaper, weaker, but fast moving.

We did the chariot mixin, longsword mixin (not comm mod, but could be), we have the persian immortals weapon switching now.

Any other ideas?

I still didn't see people using them. So I don't know how relevant this unit/diversification really is. Maybe people didn't realize they can make them in barracks.  :/ But I really like the idea of this small differences, like the Iberian fire CAV.

We should make champions available as soon as one enters P3. There should be no extra tech for it. Also there should be a balance for CIVs, which need extra buildings for champs. Some of that buildings have high costs or bad unit stats (the Athenian gymnasium still doesn't extend the area of a player).

My experience with champ build time in team games is not that bad, when I start fighting there wouldn't be enough resources to make constant champions with reduced building time. So I don't consider it one of the biggest issues in 0AD.

Rebalancing archers would be more relevant, people again complain about getting archers CIVs, when games are with random CIVs!

 

Edited August 16, 2024 by Nobbi

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

11 hours ago, Nobbi said:

Also there should be a balance for CIVs, which need extra buildings for champs. Some of that buildings have high costs or bad unit stats (the Athenian gymnasium still doesn't extend the area of a player).

Many people suggest that these units need to be replaced by stables/barracks. This is boring imo. The worst offender for this is of course the famous han academy costing 300 stone and 300 metal. We can turn this disadvantage into an advantage/ differentiation feature by removing unlock techs from these buildings and/or decreasing train time proportionally to their cost.

[Gurken Khan]

27 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

The worst offender for this is of course the famous han academy costing 300 stone and 300 metal. We can turn this disadvantage into an advantage/ differentiation feature by removing unlock techs from these buildings and/or decreasing train time proportionally to their cost.

?

The only champ building with a kind of unlock tec is the Gymnasion? And why are the Han academies so expensive anyways?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/pulls

Here's a list of patches for the next version of the community mod. Feel free to leave comments.

A short list:

• Champions trained from special buildings and temples train 25% faster
  • carth sacred cav moved back to temple as a test.
  • This is intended to greatly improve the viability of champions that come from buildings other than the barracks and stable.
• Han champ building cheaper 300s, 300m -> 200s, 200m
• loom 150 f -> 100 f
• team vision tech added to the market, still available in from the cc.
• Walls can be built over trees, destroying the trees upon completion (Thanks @Grapjas)
• Archer class buff: 0.2 more damage and +0.1 move speed for infantry archers.
• Han Crossbow buff: +1 pierce damage and +0.4 move speed (9.6 was very close to melee move speed)
• Ram armor rebalance: 50 pierce armor -> 30, 6 hack -> 7.
• Sparta adjustments:
  • slightly longer train time for neodamodes (reduce spam)
  • Champion train time penalty removed
  • Syssition cost 200s, 200m -> 150s, 150
  • Champions in p1 hopefully more viable
  • Champ move speed tech in p1 and cheaper.
• Macedonians arsenal available in p2, bolts available p2. (in a27)
• Romans update (in a27)
  • fertility festival is not needed to train women from houses (civ bonus)
  • unique tech: roman roads, global 5% movement speed buff.
  • unique tech: marian reforms:
    • Converts citizen soldiers to legionary infantry, which are rank 3
    • legionaries and lanciarius may be trained from production buildings with an cost profile of 50 food 50 wood, 15 metal.
    • Centurions may be trained from the fortress
    • Onager unlocked from the arsenal (Area of effect siege)
• I will add the athenian differentiation soon: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3727

Edited August 31, 2024 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Also, please anyone leave some thoughts on the current naval balance. I haven't seen much naval gameplay, so I don't know what to change.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Converts citizen soldiers to legionary infantry, which are rank 3

Here are the details on this part of the reforms:

• Swordsmen -> legionaries, rank 3 swordsmen
• skirmishers -> lanciarius, rank 3 skirmisher
• both are trainable from the cc, barracks, and army camp for 50f 50w 15m after the reforms
• Cavalry availability remains the same
• spearmen, no matter what rank, will become "Conscript spearmen" that cannot promote.

The reasons for this change was that the power spike of suddenly having so many rank 3 swordsmen from spearmen specifically was too strong. At the same time, losing the spearman unit entirely would put the civ at risk to cavalry. Also, the conscript spearman fills an economic hole that would be too problematic after the reforms.

Edited August 31, 2024 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Grapjas]

5 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Walls can be built over trees, destroying the trees upon completion

Just a heads up this line should be

if (this.GetBuildProgress() == 1.0 && this.entsToDestroy)

and i also didnt check OOS (probably fine though). Was more of a prototype code.

Edited August 31, 2024 by Grapjas

[real_tabasco_sauce]

37 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Just a heads up this line should be

if (this.GetBuildProgress() == 1.0 && this.entsToDestroy)

and i also didnt check OOS (probably fine though). Was more of a prototype code.

Thanks for the heads up. I doubt OOS will be a problem, but I typically make a test mod and send it to a couple people for testing before releases.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Hopefully tree-destruction feature will prompt someone to make it more full-featured visually, by making the trees and shrubs tint red when the wall preview is waved over them. It's something I've wanted for a long time for Delenda Est, which allows all buildings to destroy trees when placed. 

[Gurken Khan]

15 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Hopefully tree-destruction feature will prompt someone to make it more full-featured visually, by making the trees and shrubs tint red when the wall preview is waved over them. It's something I've wanted for a long time for Delenda Est, which allows all buildings to destroy trees when placed. 

I've even made a pic for that two years ago.^^

[chrstgtr]

12 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

• Walls can be built over trees, destroying the trees upon completion (Thanks @Grapjas)
•  

When do trees get deleted? Does it apply to Roman siege walls? If immediately and yes, then it could easily be abused to eliminate enemy's wood supply. Could also be a concern for Athenian Walls in neutral territory. 

12 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

• Macedonians arsenal available in p2, bolts available p2. (in a27)

Will need to watch. Bolts much stronger now than when we discussed for a27. Maybe nerf train time in p2. 

Edited September 1, 2024 by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

14 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

12 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

• Walls can be built over trees, destroying the trees upon completion (Thanks @Grapjas)
•  

When do trees get deleted? Does it apply to Roman siege walls? If immediately and yes, then it could easily be abused to eliminate enemy's wood supply. Could also be a concern for Athenian Walls in neutral territory. 

The walls have to be completely built in order to delete the trees.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

14 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The walls have to be completely built in order to delete the trees.

That is a gameplay consideration which will look very weird in-game. DE will stick to the current method, where the tree is deleted once the foundation starts work. There is little worry of deleting a bunch of the enemy's trees, since DE uses forest groves, which are not destructible. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 31/08/2024 at 1:34 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

• spearmen, no matter what rank, will become "Conscript spearmen" that cannot promote.

 

Auxiliary Spearmen work too. Pedites Auxiliaris 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

38 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Auxiliary Spearmen work too. Pedites Auxiliaris 

These look great! these could be used when I update the community mod changes into the development version.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

44 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

These look great! these could be used when I update the community mod changes into the development version.

For base game, I'll change their helmets to Coolus helmets and their body textures to Germanic tunics or something. They can keep the same shields and spears.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

How do we feel about letting rams have comparable pierce armor to buildings (currently far greater), and slightly upping the hack armor (6 -> 7)

The idea is to make rams slightly harder to destory with just a handful of antiram, and more forgiving if all you have nearby are ranged units. Obviously, you will still be in trouble if you task all your ranged units to try and kill a ram in the middle of a battle.

[chrstgtr]

5 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

How do we feel about letting rams have comparable pierce armor to buildings (currently far greater), and slightly upping the hack armor (6 -> 7)

The idea is to make rams slightly harder to destory with just a handful of antiram, and more forgiving if all you have nearby are ranged units. Obviously, you will still be in trouble if you task all your ranged units to try and kill a ram in the middle of a battle.

I like the bold.

Don't care too much about the piece armor but it sounds fine. 

I think people will mostly adjust without any problems either way.