Wow's new unit countering ideas

[Lion.Kanzen]

This sounds interesting.

 

 

[Dakara]

Am I the only one who hates the hard counter systems present on each unit like in age of empire?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

12 hours ago, Dakara said:

Am I the only one who hates the hard counter systems present on each unit like in age of empire?

It seemed like "hate" is a strong word.

[Adeimantos]

If this game was going to be realistic there would need to be fewer units, most would be able to switch between two weapons, with major differences between civilizations. As it is, two different units often represent different roles or actions that the same soldiers would have in real life. With this system the 'rock-paper-scissors' system is an important part of strategy, and I like the general pattern Wow lays out, though I'd do some details differently.

[Lion.Kanzen]

9 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

If this game was going to be realistic there would need to be fewer units, most would be able to switch between two weapons, with major differences between civilizations. 

there is a patch, but I don't know why they don't pay as much attention to giving birth to that patch. in that patch you will be able to have 2 attacks.

[Adeimantos]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

there is a patch, but I don't know why they don't pay as much attention to giving birth to that patch. in that patch you will be able to have 2 attacks.

It would be interesting to take the game in that direction, but it would be a pretty major overhaul unless we did it to just a couple elite units or something. Unless we decide to totally change course we should stick with making combat work similar to the way Age of Kings does.

[Lion.Kanzen]

9 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

It would be interesting to take the game in that direction, but it would be a pretty major overhaul unless we did it to just a couple elite units or something. Unless we decide to totally change course we should stick with making combat work similar to the way Age of Kings does.

the patch already exists (since A16) and 0 A.d has long since decided to drop Age of kings to be more of a hybrid.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 18/10/2022 at 2:25 AM, Dakara said:

Am I the only one who hates the hard counter systems present on each unit like in age of empire?

no u are not. 0ad's system of counters is far better. The natural properties of units and the ways they are used give rise to appropriate counters. (ie more sophisticated than rock paper scissors) Also, AOE style counters will likely work poorly with citizen soldiers.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

no u are not. 0ad's system of counters is far better. The natural properties of units and the ways they are used give rise to appropriate counters. (ie more sophisticated than rock paper scissors) Also, AOE style counters will likely work poorly with citizen soldiers.

That's what I'm saying, we should improve the roles even if it's subtle, especially differentiating between similar units, like pikeman and halberd or club and axe and mace and axe.

[Adeimantos]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

That's what I'm saying, we should improve the roles even if it's subtle, especially differentiating between similar units, like pikeman and halberd or club and axe and mace and axe.

I prefer natural counters too, and like you're saying, what's important to me is to have a well developed counter system, not just lots of similar units where whoever sends more units wins. With 3 damage and armor types it is totally possible to have a robust counter system without damage multipliers, and I think we should do more to take advantage of that. For instance, the javelineers could have high pierce armor and low crush armor, making them good against archers and jav cavalry but vulnerable to slingers.

Besides line units and counter units, etc i think some units should be more specialized and others more all purpose. I'd make the slingers really good at damaging armored infantry but really vulnerable to cavalry, while javelineers would be less somewhat effective against infantry but a bit less vulnerable to cavalry. Likewise pikemen would be more specialized against cavalry than spearmen but more vulnerable to archers.

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

Likewise pikemen would be more specialized against cavalry than spearmen ...

that's the only counter in the game.

[AIEND]

8 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

that's the only counter in the game.

In fact, people only pay attention to one aspect. They don't notice that the most advantageous point of the spearman and pikeman against the cavalry is not that they are easier to attack the cavalry, but the cavalry is not easy to attack them. Now I want to increase the base damage of the spearman and pikeman , adjust the damage multiplier of spearman and pikeman to cavalry to 1.25, but at the same time adjust the damage multiplier of cavalry to spearman and pikeman to 0.75.

[AIEND]

8 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

这是游戏中唯一的计数器。

I am inclined that it is not that the spearman and pikeman can kill the cavalry faster, but that the spearman and pikeman are not easily killed by the cavalry, so as long as the cavalry adopts the attack-disengagement tactic, and repeats this, it can effectively attack the infantry, Especially its side and rear, this time highlights the important role of ranged infantry (especially archers) against cavalry in reality, and in order to prevent enemy cavalry from directly attacking ranged infantry, you need to make melee infantry form a box, Protects ranged infantry.

[Genava55]

33 minutes ago, AIEND said:

I am inclined that it is not that the spearman and pikeman can kill the cavalry faster, but that the spearman and pikeman are not easily killed by the cavalry, so as long as the cavalry adopts the attack-disengagement tactic, and repeats this, it can effectively attack the infantry, Especially its side and rear, this time highlights the important role of ranged infantry (especially archers) against cavalry in reality, and in order to prevent enemy cavalry from directly attacking ranged infantry, you need to make melee infantry form a box, Protects ranged infantry.

I will add another point, the best defense against cavalry is also a dense formation. The success of pikemen during the Middle Ages was due to their formation and their training to fight in such order. Ancient pikemen weren't created to face cavalry but infantry.

Roman legionaries were very resilient to cavalry charges while not using any spears.  Parthians and Sarmatians used horse archers to weaken their lines before any charge and even with that, they struggled to break the formation.

[AIEND]

5 小时前，Genava55 说：

我再补充一点，对骑兵最好的防御也是密集阵型。 中世纪长枪兵的成功是由于他们的形成和训练以这种顺序进行战斗。 古代长枪兵不是用来对付骑兵而是步兵。

罗马军团在不使用任何长矛的情况下对骑兵冲锋非常有弹性。 帕提亚人和萨尔马提亚人在任何冲锋之前使用马弓箭手削弱他们的战线，即便如此，他们仍难以打破阵型。

In the battle of infantry against cavalry, shields are often more effective than spears, because the rider is on a horse and cannot fight close to the body like infantry, and it is more difficult to break through the defense of the shield to kill the infantry. Conversely, unless it is equipped with horse armor, The cavalry could not adequately protect themselves and their horses from the infantry with their shields.
Both sides are also equipped with shields, but the infantry can form a tighter formation and cover the whole body, while the cavalry in the loose formation cannot do it. At this time, the confrontation is beneficial to the infantry.

[Adeimantos]

23 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

the patch already exists (since A16) and 0 A.d has long since decided to drop Age of kings to be more of a hybrid.

How does the patch for switching weapons work, can the AI use it, and could it be included in a mod?

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Adeimantos said:

How does the patch for switching weapons work, can the AI use it, and could it be included in a mod?

Let me ask.

@Stan`

[alre]

@Lion.Kanzen stan is on vacation

[alre]

13 hours ago, Adeimantos said:

How does the patch for switching weapons work, can the AI use it, and could it be included in a mod?

it can be included in a mod, the AI can't use it, not sure how it works or where to find it.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, alre said:

@Lion.Kanzen stan is on vacation

I forgot.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, alre said:

it can be included in a mod, the AI can't use it, not sure how it works or where to find it.

I don't know how much it depends on the engine.

@maroder

second weapon patch depends on engine changes?

[maroder]

3 hours ago, alre said:

it can be included in a mod, the AI can't use it, not sure how it works or where to find it.

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

second weapon patch depends on engine changes?

Looks like it's only js, so it could indeed be made into mod (Not sure if it needs to be updated/rebased tho)

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D368