What do we think of the Iberian team bonus?

[LetswaveaBook]

One thing that deserves discussion is the Iberian team bonus.

This is not just a useful team bonus, but it is huge and dominant. A skirmisher faction without the bonus simply does not compare to a faction having the bonus.

So I wonder if the strength of the bonus feels acceptable to you or whether it disrupts balance to much.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I think the iberian team bonus is fine. Keep in mind it has already been nerfed once. Also, this alpha skirmishers are more powerful than usual (from melee units dying first).

The main issue is that other civs have outrageously bad team bonuses. Many of them are practically non-existant. Some of the ones that could be changed or buffed are:

• Britons: -25% hero cost and train time. (LOL) My idea for britons would be -50% phase cost and time.
• Seleucids: -20% cc cost. Perhaps it could be buffed to 40% to actually result in a strategy change.
• Persians, Carthage (trade bonuses): these could be left alone, but they should be given something else in addition.
• Athens: -25% ship training time

@ValihrAnt has a thread where he has come up with some interesting economic bonuses for individual civ and team.

 

[Dakara]

Ok bonus  

[Player of 0AD]

I also think that the bonus is ok. If a civ has a weak bonus (especially Athenians), then the civ should be buffed. For example Athenians could get 1 free wood per second.

[Yekaterina]

12 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

I also think that the bonus is ok. If a civ has a weak bonus (especially Athenians), then the civ should be buffed. For example Athenians could get 1 free wood per second.

Good idea, although I think 2 stone per second for the Athenians would be more useful to them than wood. 

The Iberian team bonus is very strong indeed. But don't forget about the Romans and Spartans: 110 health spearmen and reduced train time for infantry - these are no less OP than Iberian cost deduction. Also the Kushite elephant bonus is quite OP for elephant civs as well. 

These combinations are almost bound to win:

Ptol + iber + sparta + rome

Ptol + sele + kush + rome

Sele + iber + sparta + rome

Sparta + sele + kush + rome

 

Seleucids + Ptolemies + kush is actually incredibly OP, because Ptols and Sele can spam colonies and CCs  - mass spam mercs and deny enemy resources. Kush allows these 2 to spam elephants. Add in a Rome make them boom faster, or a Spartan to boost their spearman. Also don't forget about Sele elephant hero and Ptol merc hero. 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Yekaterina

[Dizaka]

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Good idea, although I think 2 stone per second for the Athenians would be more useful to them than wood. 

The Iberian team bonus is very strong indeed. But don't forget about the Romans and Spartans: 110 health spearmen and reduced train time for infantry - these are no less OP than Iberian cost deduction. Also the Kushite elephant bonus is quite OP for elephant civs as well. 

These combinations are almost bound to win:

Ptol + iber + sparta + rome

Ptol + sele + kush + rome

Sele + iber + sparta + rome

Sparta + sele + kush + rome

 

Seleucids + Ptolemies + kush is actually incredibly OP, because Ptols and Sele can spam colonies and CCs  - mass spam mercs and deny enemy resources. Kush allows these 2 to spam elephants. Add in a Rome make them boom faster, or a Spartan to boost their spearman. Also don't forget about Sele elephant hero and Ptol merc hero. 

 

Gaul+Roman+Iberian+Carth == Guaranteed win usually (Roman military build bonus).  Can beat ptol.

Gaul+Roman+Iberian+Seleucid == Nice S(ele)^2 push.  Can beat ptol. (Also, see Kush+Roman+Iberian+Sele).  Start with skrim p1.

Gaul+Roman+Iberian+Mauryas == Nice cav rushing by maury (Skrim cav cheaper due to iberians).  Can beat ptol with appropriate rush.  Allies have cheap temple upgrades which is awesome.  Gauls permit easy catchup with upgrades to still be viable if you rushed.

Gaul+Roman+Iberian+Ptol == Best traditional civ bundle.  Ptol hard to kill but killable (see above)

Gaul+Roman+Iberian+Sparta == another good one.  Sparta starts with Skrim p1, continues with spear and skiritai p2.

I think Gaul/Rome/Iber have best team bonuses. They enable Ptol-like civs such as Ptol/Sparta/Sele be max pop and kicking with wtf within 14 mins, or less, if Ptol-like civs are not rushed.  Kush is a nice civ to have if you are in an elephant-heavy team (e.g., a team of at least two of 2 of Ptol, Maury, Sele, and Carth but usually Carth doesn't go eles).

Edited December 19, 2021 by Dizaka

[alre]

2 stone per second is exaggerated. for athenians I think it makes more sense to have a metal related bonus, justified by the famous mines of Laurion. may be a low metal trickle, a metal mining bonus (boring), extra metal spawning next to cc, or some sort of coded bonus of any kind one may want to try to implement.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

On 18/12/2021 at 3:41 PM, Yekaterina said:

2 stone per second

maybe you mean 1 stone per 2 second right? Just considering that ptol bonus is 1 food/s and stone is more useful for athens.

I think the britons should get a 50% reduction in phase up time and cost as a team bonus. This would make for some very fun strategies. Help with mercs in p2, or fast siege in p3.

Other civs that desperately need attention for team bonus: carthage, persians.

We need to allow ourselves to think of things that seem "OP", considering how used to the iberian team bonus we are.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[alre]

3 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I think the britons should get a 50% reduction in phase up time and cost as a team bonus. This would make for some very fun strategies. Help with mercs in p2, or fast siege in p3.

team bonuses have a name and a description providing historical contest. what would that be here?

Edited December 22, 2021 by alre

[Micfild]

In my opinion, it's a reasonable bonus. The problem is, as pointed by other people, that some of the team bonuses are comparably much less usefull, making the iberian's seem stronger than it really is.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

On 18/12/2021 at 5:10 AM, Player of 0AD said:

I also think that the bonus is ok. If a civ has a weak bonus (especially Athenians), then the civ should be buffed. For example Athenians could get 1 free wood per second.

Are you suggesting an additional civ-only bonus be given to civilizations that have weak team bonuses?  I don't like that idea. 

Or are you suggesting that their team bonus should be replaced by a more powerful team bonus? 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

8 hours ago, alre said:

team bonuses have a name and a description providing historical contest. what would that be here?

IDK, some kind of historical justification could be found. If britons were found to adopt technology quickly, or their society developed quickly, then that could justify it. I suppose we could give it to athens and call it "democracy" or something. What is important is that each civ has some bonus significant enough to strategize upon.

Edited December 23, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[alre]

ok, cool. could be called "philosophy" as well. not sure a cost reduction is a good idea, I don't think team bonuses should be that impactful on strategic plans, but a significant time reduction could be a noticeable buff to phase rushing teammates.

[Player of 0AD]

9 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Are you suggesting an additional civ-only bonus be given to civilizations that have weak team bonuses?  I don't like that idea. 

Yes

9 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Or are you suggesting that their team bonus should be replaced by a more powerful team bonus? 

No

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@alre, to be fair I have no idea how powerful the phase cost and time 50% reduction would be. My goal was to introduce a bonus that is both economic and highly exploitable, just like the iberian bonus and ptol bonuses are. I am not sure if a pure time reduction would suffice to be equivalent.

For Pers I have been thinking some kind of bonus to cavalry food gathering, but idk how OP that might be for rushes. Perhaps the best way to do it would be general units +200% carrying capacity for meat. So a horse could carry 60 food instead of 20 and a regular unit could carry 30 food. It could prove useful in a number of ways. Maybe with this bonus, a person would be able to steal their enemies hunt to prevent a big cavalry rush later in p2.

Edited December 24, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Philip the Swaggerless]

11 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

Yes

A civ-only bonus that is strong enough to make the civ a competitive choice in a team game against other civs whose bonuses benefit up to 4 players... would have to be a very strong bonus.

One would expect a bonus of that level to be OP in 1v1 games.

Not that perfect balance will ever be achieved, some things will always be situational. 

[LetswaveaBook]

On 23/12/2021 at 4:20 AM, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Are you suggesting an additional civ-only bonus be given to civilizations that have weak team bonuses?  I don't like that idea. 

I think most factions need more flavour than their unit roster. Civ-only bonuses (or features such as pyramids or worker elephants) seem very good for that, so I like that idea.

On 22/12/2021 at 9:21 PM, Micfild said:

In my opinion, it's a reasonable bonus. The problem is, as pointed by other people, that some of the team bonuses are comparably much less usefull, making the iberian's seem stronger than it really is.

There is indeed a large variety in usefulness of team bonuses and it might be justifiable to say that they all need to be useful. However how useful? Do they need to be as useful as the Iberian team bonus or are they ideally half as useful? I think the Maurya team bonus is at a good place, it allows you to adapt your strategy, while the faction affected by the team bonus still feels as the same faction.

18 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

A civ-only bonus that is strong enough to make the civ a competitive choice in a team game against other civs whose bonuses benefit up to 4 players... would have to be a very strong bonus.

One would expect a bonus of that level to be OP in 1v1 games.

The civ-only bonus does not to be extremely strong if team bonuses would fall in the category "nice to have, but not decisive", such as the mauryan team bonus. I can imagine situations where a cheap&quick temple might be very useful, but people won't say that they have lost because of the cheap&quick temple. So I think the team bonus of the mauryas is a better design.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

7 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

There is indeed a large variety in usefulness of team bonuses and it might be justifiable to say that they all need to be useful. However how useful?

The civ-only bonus does not to be extremely strong if team bonuses would fall in the category "nice to have, but not decisive", such as the mauryan team bonus... So I think the team bonus of the mauryas is a better design. 

I think I am inclined to agree with you.  

I don't like that I find myself choosing a civ based on whether or not our team has any of the op team bonuses.