Ships!

[Yekaterina]

I suggest we only increase the arrow of ships when it is garrisoned by ranged units. If it is garrisoned by melee units or siege or elephants then its arrow count does not increase. Let the default arrow count be 0 so you got to garrison it with ranged units to make the ship any good. 

We can give ships a negative bonus against units so that it cannot deny eco near the beach completely. 

Furthermore we might limit ships to only attack other ships, as that would make more sense. Right now a ship next to a dock at Sicilly can destroy Carthaginian buildings on the opposite side of the Meditarranean Sea, which is preposterous! It makes  naval maps a race to build the first dock and go 2 P2 first so that you can use ships to deny the eco of other players, which is not fun. 

Furthermore, Carthaginian archers can shoot down ships in a Roman port... ships shouldn't be so susceptible to arrow fire, right? Perhaps we can make ship garrisons similar to wall garrisons where the units inside are susceptible but not the wooden bit of the ship. 

[Gurken Khan]

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Right now a ship next to a dock at Sicilly can destroy Carthaginian buildings on the opposite side of the Meditarranean Sea, which is preposterous!

The Mediterranean Sea in 'Mediterranean' is a joke. 'Nice' that the map goes up to the polar region and includes the British Isles etc., but you can't access large portions of the Mediterranean with ships, water straights like at Gibraltar are not passable... In short, that shallow puddle can't be an argument for anything imho.

 

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

I suggest we only increase the arrow of ships when it is garrisoned by ranged units.

 

I support this idea. I don't know about the other ideas for nerfing though. AFAIK the ships' weapons were used to a good degree against enemies' deck crews, so it would make sense that they can also target units at land. Finally I think that making the ships less susceptible to arrows is a bit contradictory when the complaint is that one can't get rid of ships without own ships.

[alre]

4 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Perhaps we can make ship garrisons similar to wall garrisons where the units inside are susceptible but not the wooden bit of the ship. 

I support this idea very much. However, how should ships fight other ships?

[Yekaterina]

2 hours ago, alre said:

I support this idea very much. However, how should ships fight other ships?

rams?

The arrows are just due to the units garrisoned. The mechanical part of the ship can ram each other. 

[alre]

29 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

rams?

The arrows are just due to the units garrisoned. The mechanical part of the ship can ram each other. 

this proposition poses one big problem, which is that many civs don't have ramming vessels.

Also, I don't know how satisfactory could be a combat system for 0AD ships that revolves completely around ramming. Not to mention the problem of implementing it.

[Stan`]

It's been implemented in ponies ascendant if memory serves. (Can't do both at the same time though.)

[Yekaterina]

Thank you Dakara for your propositions. I think I can make a mod for this and you can play against an AI using the mod and tell me what you think. 

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

Ships no longer fire arrows without garnison. Force people to garnison some guys with adjustement 2. Less spam boat.

I agree with this. Easy to make. 

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

2-Max 5 arrows but boost garnison(now it 10 units). It a nerf of boat dammage but more dommage to orther ships to compensate(maybe damage multiplier only vs boat? X2 or X3 let's see? ). This is to help the noobs who do not know sea battles, it is so unfair for newbies they have no chance of winning a sea battle and reduce the dammage against units on land.The boat should not be a castle that moves on the water.

I can give the ships x3 or x5 damage against other ships but maybe a x0.5 multiplier for land units, or even ban them from attacking land units completely. 

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

We cheat on the hitbox of boats, reduce it. For an artificially better maneuver and less annoying. Easier to garrison troops as well.

I am not sure what you mean by this. 

 

[Yekaterina]

I must clarify the mechanic of garrisoning on walls: instead of putting units inside a structure, the wall defines some garrison points near it, and the 'garrisoned' units stand on their garrison points completely unprotected. Then the wall offers an aura that increases the pierce resistance of garrisoned units, which makes them harder to kill. 

This isn't so difficult to apply to ships but it will look quite strange when you have 30 units garrisoned in it... 

[alre]

8 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I must clarify the mechanic of garrisoning on walls: instead of putting units inside a structure, the wall defines some garrison points near it, and the 'garrisoned' units stand on their garrison points completely unprotected. Then the wall offers an aura that increases the pierce resistance of garrisoned units, which makes them harder to kill. 

This isn't so difficult to apply to ships but it will look quite strange when you have 30 units garrisoned in it... 

that's it. very nice.

of course a limit is necessary, like 5 spots for a trireme, 10-15 for a quinquireme. if a siege engine is to be considered too, that would make it a lot more interesting, but I don't know if it's currently doable.

[Stan`]

It's possible, it was one of the features I and @Freagarach added.

[alre]

44 minutes ago, Stan` said:

It's been implemented in ponies ascendant if memory serves. (Can't do both at the same time though.)

what?

[Stan`]

Ramming ships

[Yekaterina]

Here is a concept demonstration of the ships mod, suggested by @Dakara

Sorry about the video quality. I need to configure my video editor

 

[Yekaterina]

I gave the ship 6.7 crush attack (previously it was 35 pierce!), 3x bonus against other ships, 0.125x bonus against buildings. I feel like they are still too weak against other ships and maybe a little bit overnerfed. 

Each ship has 35 pierce armour now, so they are quite invulnerable against ranged units. Since most infantry and cavalry have quite high crush armour the ships can't kill land units as easily now, but can hurt them a little. 

[soloooy0]

the iberian fire ship, deserves to have the fire damage as its champion cavalry ...

[Freagarach]

6 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Here is a concept demonstration of the ships mod, suggested by @Dakara

Sorry about the video quality. I need to configure my video editor

 

Why not a few turret points and the rest garrison slots? Or only ranged units on deck?

[Yekaterina]

I managed to garrison artilerry onto ships' deck, so they can fire like normal. 

[clavz]

[alre]

lol. that's a bireme, isn't it? on a quinquireme it should look a lot nicer.

[Yekaterina]

9 minutes ago, alre said:

ol. that's a bireme, isn't it? on a quinquireme it should look a lot nicer.

Yes, I am adding it to quinquereme now.  I doubt I can fit 50 units onto the deck ...

[Gurken Khan]

@YekaterinaIs it possible to position the artillery in front of the mast? I kinda don't like my projectiles going through my mast & sail...

On 17/07/2021 at 1:22 AM, Gurken Khan said:

[Yekaterina]

3 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

@YekaterinaIs it possible to position the artillery in front of the mast? I kinda don't like my projectiles going through my mast & sail...

Yes, I can do that. But there is limited space on the decks though...

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

On 27/07/2021 at 5:11 AM, Yekaterina said:

Perhaps we can make ship garrisons similar to wall garrisons where the units inside are susceptible but not the wooden bit of the ship. 

I think this is a great idea. 

On a side note does anyone agree that more units should be able to pack up on stone walls? Right now it is 8 and usually it is not practical to have them up there. I feel having 16 would be more useful.

[Yekaterina]

8 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

On a side note does anyone agree that more units should be able to pack up on stone walls? Right now it is 8 and usually it is not practical to have them up there. I feel having 16 would be more useful.

16 would be more practical, yes. The only concern is an artist one: the units will look quite crowded if we fit 16 of them on there. 

[nifa]

if there is a plan to distinguish between arrow-attacks (archers) and bolt-attacks (catapult), then the ships shouldn't turn for attacking with arrows.

Let's say soldiers, citizens, elephants, heros, and fishing boats are attacked with arrows, while buildings, siege and bigger boats are attacked with bolts.

Seems weird if the whole ship is turned to attack a single soldier standing on the beach. They should be able to shoot in any direction then.