Walk vs. run

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

On 20/06/2021 at 12:16 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

If we are talking about AoM, I would like to push forward the idea of(possibly once a minute) having a battle charge ability. This would mean you send your (infantry) units in battle using the run speed for a short sprint. They would aggressively attack the first unit they see, so it can't be used for fleeing. Units doing a battle charge get the enraged bloodlust status effect, significantly reducing their gathering ability for a while.

I like this quite a bit but I am worried about the timing, what if you attack once with 20 spears and then add 20 more spears, then your army separates from each other and it could get frustrating. 

What do you guys think about melee units simply moving at a faster (x% faster) when they are 10 or 20 m from an enemy? I feel this is simple, but there might be situations where this is frustrating that are not coming to mind. I don't think it can be eco-abused at least. 

maybe the x% faster within 10 m mechanic could be used only when an attack order is given, so they could not retreat at the same speed which would be super annoying.

I have been bugged by this for a long time and I am very appreciative of you guys for starting to do something about it

Edited June 23, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[LetswaveaBook]

27 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I am worried about the timing, what if you attack once with 20 spears and then add 20 more spears, then your army separates from each other and it could get frustrating. 

If you get such an annoying situation, it is your own fault since you are the one that gave the orders ;P

Also I was more thinking about giving each unit once a minute such an ability. However, my point remains valid: If you mismicro, it is your own fault.

29 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What do you guys think about melee units simply moving at a faster (x% faster) when they are 10 m from an enemy? I feel this is simple

It might be conceptually simple. The solution would be give each unit an aura that makes melee opponents move faster and could be done easily. However the computational cost is not low as each unit needs to get an aura and there would be distance computations. A less taxing idea would be to let every melee unit check every step if there is an opposing unit within 10 meters (If there are in a 1v1 180 for both players, does the melee unit need to check for all 180 of them that they are not in range? and thus make 180 computations per melee unit). So unless someone has a smarter solution, I am afraid it makes the game to slow.

41 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

maybe the x% faster within 10 m could be used only when an attack order is given, so they could not retreat at the same speed which would be super annoying.

This way you could attack a unit that is not supposed to be the target. If there is a single unit in the direction you want to retreat to, you can use that vector to get the speed bonus. Therefore only giving the bonus to the patrol command would be better. However that is gimmicky again, as in this case the attack command and patrol command would work different.

Furthermore it feels wierd if only melee units could 'run'.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

It is true I am pretty ignorant of what is possible/easy to program or easier/harder for the engine to run, so I thought a simpler solution would automatically be better. The more I think about it, the charge mechanic could be pretty good. If people like this charge mechanic, then I think we would like a way to select the units that are ready to charge, or at least see how many of the units are ready to charge. 

11 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

If you get such an annoying situation, it is your own fault since you are the one that gave the orders

Please could you just be a little bit nicer when you talk to me? 

I was not saying I would be incapable of microing such a situation, I was saying that there needs to be some kind of way to micromanage this effect, like there is for most other things in 0ad.

I was also not trying to denigrate your idea, in fact I like it quite a bit. I was just coming up with what I thought was a simpler alternative for people to consider. 

 

[LetswaveaBook]

44 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Please could you just be a little bit nicer when you talk to me? 

I did not mean to direct it at anyone personally, but rather to say that "if someone gets such an annoying situation, it is their own fault since they are the one that gave the orders".

48 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I was also not trying to denigrate your idea

I think that we both try to be honest and constructive. If any idea seems flawed, it think it is better to voice concerns rather than leaving them below the surface.

[ChronA]

3 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What do you guys think about melee units simply moving at a faster (x% faster) when they are 10 or 20 m from an enemy? I feel this is simple, but there might be situations where this is frustrating that are not coming to mind. I don't think it can be eco-abused at least. 

Easiest implementation would be to add a range check to the approaching phase of the individual unit combat state. If the range to the unit's target is less than X, switch to running speed. The only exploit I can immediately see is "grappling" between targets in order run long distances. Like if the enemy had a building out in front of their main army you might order your soldiers to attack the building so your units will sprint most of the way to the army, then immediately switch target to the foremost enemy unit so your guys will sprint the rest of the way... and then switch target to a enemy in the rear of the formation so your units will sprint around to encircle the enemy. 

And when you want to retreat, just repeat the entire process in reverse!  

Actually now that I think about it, if the sprint leashing range was the right length (not so long that connecting grapple targets is trivial, nor so short that it is all down to luck) that could make for a really amazing skill mechanic. 

(0 AD combat could use more skill mechanics--preferably ones not based on exploiting bad unit AI for a change.) 

Edited June 23, 2021 by ChronA

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I would say that a simple double click would do the job a lot better.  Double-click and your unit starts running provided that it has stamina.  Once its stamina is spent, it cannot continue running.

Obviously stamina could be extended to make the act of attacking even drain stamina and have a unit being idle regenerate stamina at a faster rate, but I digress.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I would say that a simple double click would do the job a lot better.  Double-click and your unit starts running provided that it has stamina.  Once its stamina is spent, it cannot continue running.

Obviously stamina could be extended to make the act of attacking even drain stamina and have a unit being idle regenerate stamina at a faster rate, but I digress.

You have to go back over a decade for that kind of functionality!

[ChronA]

Edit: After giving it I second thought I've decided I ought to still post this comment, since I think it contains some useful perspectives on this topic. However after rereading my on words, I came to the realization that I don't agree with my own conclusions! While I pointed to the Starcraft 2 Zealot as an example of why this charge ability we are discussing would not work as well if it were player controlled, there are two other examples of mobility enhancing skills in that game that point to the opposite conclusion. Medivac Boost and Stalker Blink both work great while being 100% player controlled.

More over in my own eternally unpublished total rebalance mod for the game Achron, I gave every single unit the ability to blink teleport to any location in its vision radius for only a modest resource cost (and only partly because I want compensate for that game's chronic pathfinding screwups). Presumably I did not think that would be impossible to balance! So yeah, I'm a bit of a dunce today... but maybe a useful dunce? You decide...

ChronA said:
>> In every discussion I've seen on this topic, you (not Thorfinn specifically, but the community in general) keep coming back to this idea that running has to be player controlled, almost like it is some sort of commandment. I really do not understand why. Could someone please explain it to me?

The way I see it: APM is a resource. Player attention spent double clicking to make units sprint is time not spent making units at home. APM is also a skill with a high floor and a low ceiling, which means it has a fairly toxic character. Any time you add an active ability to a game you are trying to fit it within a sweet spot inside those two dimensions, plus the additional dimension of whether the mechanic wouldn't work better as an auto-cast.

In the context of this proposed sprint ability, it needs to be tactically potent enough that it is worth using at all, but not so potent that you should be using it every instant it becomes available. And it needs some sort of deeper tactical dimension, so players agree any large or small victory won with it feels earned and not just a fluke of luck, timing, or dexterity.

It the case of this feature, I really don't see how you thread that needle. I think the sweet spot is very narrow as an active ability, and it's much bigger in both dimensions once you make it an auto-cast. I mean, the closest analog I know of is the SC2 Zealot Charge, and does anyone turns off its auto-cast? 

Edited June 24, 2021 by ChronA

[soloooy0]

holap, I haven't read all the comments but well, here are my ideas
the system of running without a system of: stamina, morale or radius of action/charge I don't think it can be implemented in an easy or safe way for balance 
1 stamina: that the units have a formation to run and have a bar, with its recharge time.
2 morale that the units: have a morale that depends on having troops nearby and being in their terrain, that gives them security and knowledge of the terrain, but I think it is too difficult (imposible) to balance.
3 action/charge radius, that certain formations have a radius and depending on that radius they can charge/run or better support a charge or projectiles for example, I think it would be a system similar to AOE 3 and the use of formations to use the secondary/special attack of some units. 

[azayrahmad]

3 hours ago, ChronA said:

In every discussion I've seen on this topic, you (not Thorfinn specifically, but the community in general) keep coming back to this idea that running has to be player controlled, almost like it is some sort of commandment. I really do not understand why. Could someone please explain it to me?

This mechanism is inspired from other games such as Total War series and Praetorians, where running/charging cost stamina, so the running/charging order needs to be manually done. StarCraft Zealot charge cost no resource, so manual charging is only needed to avoid strategic mistake (e.g. prevent lone Zealot to charge masses of Marines). Either way is good implementation, I think. I slightly prefer autorunning tho, I prefer less micro.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 hours ago, ChronA said:

The way I see it: APM is a resource. Player attention spent double clicking to make units sprint is time not spent making units at home. APM is also a skill with a high floor and a low ceiling, which means it has a fairly toxic character. Any time you add an active ability to a game you are trying to fit it within a sweet spot inside those two dimensions, plus the additional dimension of whether the mechanic wouldn't work better as an auto-cast.

 

That's why I think things like charging, flanking, etc. work better with a battalion system.

 

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone what is a battalion system?

only other RTS I have played is AoE3 and that had some very frustrating pathfinding and battle mechanics. If I remember correctly, any group of units were always in a formation of some kind. One thing I liked about 0ad when I joined was the freedom with which units moved.

 

[alre]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That's why I think things like charging, flanking, etc. work better with a battalion system.

It's not about battallions, those games, unlike 0AD, don't include base building and are only focused on battle management, hence some more micro for each unit is more fun than encumbering. If we added it to 0AD, it would become almost a necessary move for people using melee units, adding to their required micro. Do you think it's a buff for melee? It's not. Just adding to melee units speed would be a buff, not a user-activated ability that is so relevant that it is necessary.

On the other hand, it could be self-activated, but let's stop a moment to consider what we have now: running, the way it is now, is a confusing mechanic that noone in this thread new all the triggers for, it causes inconsistent behaviour and even a proper bug (that @Player of 0AD pointed out). This is what happens when a feature, even one that "is just a gimmick", gets added without extensive testing. And why would we even want to add it? AoE does wonderfully without it! Keep it simple! Keep it simple, silly!

By the way, a "berseker mode" that cannot be retreated, like @LetswaveaBook suggested, seems like fun. But not for all units, just as a particular tactic employed by some special unit: naked fanatics would be a natural choice.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

11 hours ago, ChronA said:

The way I see it: APM is a resource. Player attention spent double clicking to make units sprint is time not spent making units at home. APM is also a skill with a high floor and a low ceiling, which means it has a fairly toxic character.

I don't really see it as such.  It's just a double-click.  You're not opening some new tab or searching the ui for a button or even pressing a different hotkey.  

2 hours ago, alre said:

On the other hand, it could be self-activated, but let's stop a moment to consider what we have now: running, the way it is now, is a confusing mechanic that noone in this thread new all the triggers for

This I can definitely agree with.

[Lion.Kanzen]

let's use this post to discuss charges.

a very simple, 2d implementation of cavalry and infantry charge can be made, with almost no physics involved.

 

one condition is to charge certain units, I would not charge buildings.

the charge would count as initial damage, a damage that mathematically exceeds the numbers of a simple normal attack (those who must know about physics should intuit what this equivalence is).

will start as a normal attack in a wide space, once the unit starts trotting, it will seek to impact units, leaving an initial damage.

in theory if it is too long the space should slow down.

the charge would count as initial damage, a damage that mathematically exceeds the numbers of a simple normal attack (those who must know about physics should intuit what this equivalence is).

will start as a normal attack in a wide space, once the unit starts trotting, it will seek to hit units, leaving an initial damage.

in theory if it is too long the space should slow down.

I left a practical example above.

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen