Gameplay issue: Booming = Turtling

[Fabius]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

In this case, I wouldn't say they are "jobless." For one, remember it is still an important "job" to go harass the enemy and cause damage.

This is done currently, but it's widely considered that their economic value generally surpasses their immediate fighting value. The idea here is to bring down the economic value of CS however much is appropriate while adding an additional eco unit.

A valid point, but I will posit that armed eco is much more useful than unarmed, especially if you want to push an opponents territory and strip-mine his resources.

A possible alternative solution has come to mind, give citizen soldiers an alternate form for gathering resources that you can automatically toggle when telling them to gather resources, then a combat mode when you tell them to attack something. This at least simulates the need to drop what you doing, grab weapons etc etc.

Makes it necessary to improve your vision to avoid surprise attacks too.

[Dakara]

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

A valid point, but I will posit that armed eco is much more useful than unarmed, especially if you want to push an opponents territory and strip-mine his resources.

A possible alternative solution has come to mind, give citizen soldiers an alternate form for gathering resources that you can automatically toggle when telling them to gather resources, then a combat mode when you tell them to attack something. This at least simulates the need to drop what you doing, grab weapons etc etc.

Makes it necessary to improve your vision to avoid surprise attacks too.

this need exist already if you dont want give free ressources to ennemy  

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

A possible alternative solution has come to mind, give citizen soldiers an alternate form for gathering resources that you can automatically toggle when telling them to gather resources, then a combat mode when you tell them to attack something. This at least simulates the need to drop what you doing, grab weapons etc etc

Too micromanagement...

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

Makes it necessary to improve your vision to avoid surprise attacks too.

I don't see the problem with this.

[borg-]

Boom is just a way to play, I don't see it as a structural economic problem of 0a.d. I like how it's different from aoe for example. For me the biggest issue is the default population at 300 in 1v1 and 200 in tg. If "normal" in 1v1 games was population 100, then we would have to have much more accurate decisions than we have today. With population 100, you may not have enough resources to reach phase 3 with all weapons technologies before combat. The punishment for a not so good rush would also not be as great, as the snowball would be smaller, and you can still reach population 100 right after your enemy.

[Acanthis]

What if all CS, no matter the rank*, were by default more of a militia than a soldier.

What if citizen soldiers needed to (for example, similar to the idea Fabius posted) either:

A- Enter a barracks for a certain period of time to simulate switching gear. Once complete (a visual representation or progress bar would be useful), combat stats and loot value are boosted while gather rates are reduced.

*Higher ranking citizen soldiers could have a rapidly decreased mobilization/demobilization timer

or

B- Barracks/Stables/etc had an aura which performed the same function as A, but the speed of assembling in battle gear was reduced per unit in the aura (if possible). Upgrades/Bonuses could increase this speed.

The same task would be required to demobilize.

This would slow down the pace of the game quite a lot and likely be divisive.

Alternatively the ranking system could be more differentiated with a steeper curve in attributes gained/lost when the units progress.

Either way, any major change to the CS-gatherer system will cause some major discussion and debate, so perhaps minor tweaks are best.

As an aside, a drilling field "building" would be interesting as well, which could unlock formation bonuses or other attributes for units that undergo training outside of the barracks. Again, this would really change the game and perhaps reduce the speed of gameplay too much for many players, but it would add a dose of realism...

Edited April 12, 2023 by Acanthis

[Dakara]

Why searching solution? if we don't know the issue? there is an issue in 0AD about CS unit? Im my opinion CS unit make RTS a unique great RTS

[Dakara]

23 hours ago, Acanthis said:

What if all CS, no matter the rank*, were by default more of a militia than a soldier.

What if citizen soldiers needed to (for example, similar to the idea Fabius posted) either:

A- Enter a barracks for a certain period of time to simulate switching gear. Once complete (a visual representation or progress bar would be useful), combat stats and loot value are boosted while gather rates are reduced.

*Higher ranking citizen soldiers could have a rapidly decreased mobilization/demobilization timer

or

B- Barracks/Stables/etc had an aura which performed the same function as A, but the speed of assembling in battle gear was reduced per unit in the aura (if possible). Upgrades/Bonuses could increase this speed.

The same task would be required to demobilize.

This would slow down the pace of the game quite a lot and likely be divisive.

Alternatively the ranking system could be more differentiated with a steeper curve in attributes gained/lost when the units progress.

Either way, any major change to the CS-gatherer system will cause some major discussion and debate, so perhaps minor tweaks are best.

As an aside, a drilling field "building" would be interesting as well, which could unlock formation bonuses or other attributes for units that undergo training outside of the barracks. Again, this would really change the game and perhaps reduce the speed of gameplay too much for many players, but it would add a dose of realism...

a realism yes, but too much micronamangement for nothing..

but it can be a good idea for a mod, where game is longer and realist ,this kind of mod can find its audience

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

5 hours ago, Dakara said:

Im my opinion CS unit make RTS a unique great RTS

CS soldiers do make the game unique, and they should be kept in the game of course. The "solution" people are looking for is a way to make citizen soldiers primary role military and secondary role economic. This means that the best use for CS is for fighting and that you are inherently incurring some opportunity cost if you get them just for eco. I hope this helps explain from a gameplay perspective.

5 hours ago, Dakara said:

a realism yes, but too much micronamangement for nothing..

I Agree here. The topic is about gameplay, not realism.

[borg-]

Perhaps what is missing is to give due protagonism to the champions. Maybe move infantry champs to p1 and cavalry to p2. Although it probably needs adjustments to the units.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, borg- said:

Perhaps what is missing is to give due protagonism to the champions. Maybe move infantry champs to p1 and cavalry to p2. Although it probably needs adjustments to the units.

I think there are not enough champions to do this. I think we could do this with Sparta as you proposed a while ago, and if it turns out well, it could either remain civ specific or become more of a mainstream mechanic.

Edited April 16, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BeTe]

On 12/04/2023 at 5:42 PM, borg- said:

Boom is just a way to play, I don't see it as a structural economic problem of 0a.d. I like how it's different from aoe for example. For me the biggest issue is the default population at 300 in 1v1 and 200 in tg. If "normal" in 1v1 games was population 100, then we would have to have much more accurate decisions than we have today. With population 100, you may not have enough resources to reach phase 3 with all weapons technologies before combat. The punishment for a not so good rush would also not be as great, as the snowball would be smaller, and you can still reach population 100 right after your enemy.

1) Did you or someone else had chance to try this pop cap? Or did you guys discussed this?

2) Also (question for all) where we are at considering points from Valihrant , did community-mod fixed anything and how much? 

Edited July 27 by BeTe

[alre]

9 hours ago, BeTe said:

1) Did you or someone else had chance to try this pop cap? Or did you guys discussed this?

150 max pop is my favorite. 100 is a bit too low, but also good. borg well described the consequences of low pop cap on meta, in fact it's very easy to reach pop cap before even getting to p3.