gameplay Wonders seem unfocused and unnecessary

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Honest questions: 

How many multiplayer matches actually include the construction of Wonders? How many competitive matches?

Do they have a clear gameplay purpose?

Are their current effects worth building one? 

Do their current effects make sense?

Can they be made to be more integral to the late game? 

Edited March 12, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Feldfeld]

They are worth it, but are forbidden in multiplayer games because more pop => too much lag. Or at least that was the case back in A21, players seem to just have forgotten it now.

[chrstgtr]

11 minutes ago, Feldfeld said:

They are worth it, but are forbidden in multiplayer games because more pop => too much lag. Or at least that was the case back in A21, players seem to just have forgotten it now.

I will build them occasionally. No one really bans them anymore like they used to. They are often necessary to break stalemates but this usually only occurs in very long games

 

And to answer OP's question, yes. They can be very useful for the pop bonus. Although they are less useful in a24 than before because they no longer give the the auto +10 pop bonus, so no real benefit occurs for at least 2 minutes after building even if you assume resource scarcity isn't a problem (although it usually is). So now it takes a long time to get the resources to build the wonder, a long time to get resources for the tech, and a long time to research the tech before you get any benefit. 

 

I would re-add the +10 pop bonus and/or I would increase cost and make the +20% bonus automatic. 

 

I didn't even realize there was a resource trickle until I looked up stats just now, so I wouldn't say it matters (especially because no one builds wonders unless you already have a ton of res)

[Grapjas]

On A23 i played quite some games that used wonders in them but they were mainly on games with low max pop limit. A24, idk though. But i agree they could use a more critical look on how they are atm.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Grapjas

[Lion.Kanzen]

I am one of those who press for more technology in the game soon and that this serves to balance some things and why in the late Game they have super technologies in them.

[maroder]

From the name "wonder" one normally expects more than just a little pop bonus. So some extra technologies that really boost your game once you have the resources to build a them seem like a good idea to me.

[Palaxin]

What about instead of the population bonus, wonders allow you to research one of three (cf. heroes) possible endgame technologies that are designed to end a close match:

• economic boost: 1500 food, 1000 metal, 500 wood
  for women: +50% carry capacity and gather rate, +25% construction/repair/walking speed
  for citizen soldiers: +25% carry capacity and gather rate
• defensive boost: 1500 stone, 1000 wood, 500 metal
  for buildings: +25% HP, capture points and capture regen rate, +5 HP/s regeneration
  for units: +25% HP, +1 HP/s regeneration
• offensive boost: 1500 metal, 1000 food, 500 wood
  for units (including siege engines, ships): +30% attack and +15% speed

Edited March 12, 2021 by Palaxin

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Palaxin said:

What about instead of the population bonus, wonders allow you to research one of three possible endgame technologies that are designed to end a close match:

• economic boost: 1500 food, 1000 metal, 500 wood
  for women: +50% carry capacity and gather rate, +25% construction/repair/walking speed
  for citizen soldiers: +25% carry capacity and gather rate
• defensive boost: 1500 stone, 1000 wood, 500 metal
  for buildings: +25% HP, capture points and capture regen rate, +5 HP/s regeneration
  for units: +25% HP, +1 HP/s regeneration
• offensive boost: 1500 metal, 1000 food, 500 wood
  for units (including siege engines, ships): +30% attack and +15% speed

I like these. What if by building a Wonder you unlock a 4th phase ("Empire" Phase, possibly), which unlocks these kinds of über technologies? Maybe each structure can have at least one 4th phase über tech, which is unlocked by building the Wonder.

[Grapjas]

6 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

What about instead of the population bonus, wonders allow you to research one of three (cf. heroes) possible endgame technologies that are designed to end a close match:

• economic boost: 1500 food, 1000 metal, 500 wood
  for women: +50% carry capacity and gather rate, +25% construction/repair/walking speed
  for citizen soldiers: +25% carry capacity and gather rate
• defensive boost: 1500 stone, 1000 wood, 500 metal
  for buildings: +25% HP, capture points and capture regen rate, +5 HP/s regeneration
  for units: +25% HP, +1 HP/s regeneration
• offensive boost: 1500 metal, 1000 food, 500 wood
  for units (including siege engines, ships): +30% attack and +15% speed

I like the idea of multiple one time choice but not the stats. +xx att speed type boosts are a little overused at this point imo. Something like produce champs faster or unlock a new special unit/building would be more interesting.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Grapjas

[Yekaterina]

I appreciate the Empire Phase idea, it appears in Delenda Est mod. 

[maroder]

2 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

one of three possible endgame technologies

either that, or a specific one for each civ. That would give room for differentiation.

Additional gameplay bonus: You need to scout more even in the late game and if you see your opponent is building a wonder you need to go for a big push to prevent it. So it would add a new dimension to the usual fighting.

[hyperion]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I like these. What if by building a Wonder you unlock a 4th phase ("Empire" Phase, possibly), which unlocks these kinds of über technologies? Maybe each structure can have at least one 4th phase über tech, which is unlocked by building the Wonder.

The issue with with wonders becoming to important is footprint. Some civs might get screwed here.

[Yekaterina]

I think we can add new features into the Empire Phase, for example unlocking some new OP units and techs. Perhaps in Empire phase we can allow access to other faction's units, because realistically in history an Empire captures other civilisation's land and use their people as soldiers. Perhaps we can allow the training of local unit types from baracks. 

For example, if a Roman player captures a Carthaginian barrack then they can train archers from that barrack to increase diversity. Similarly if Persians capture a Roman siege workshop they can start training catapults. This is more historically realistic. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, maroder said:

Additional gameplay bonus: You need to scout more even in the late game and if you see your opponent is building a wonder you need to go for a big push to prevent it. So it would add a new dimension to the usual fighting.

A universal notification could work too:

"{playerName} has started building a Wonder!"

"{playerName} has finished building a Wonder!"

[Palaxin]

8 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I like these. What if by building a Wonder you unlock a 4th phase ("Empire" Phase, possibly), which unlocks these kinds of über technologies? Maybe each structure can have at least one 4th phase über tech, which is unlocked by building the Wonder.

if you ask me 0 A.D. should just incorporate Delenda Est totally

[maroder]

3 minutes ago, hyperion said:

The issue with with wonders becoming to important is footprint. Some civs might get screwed here.

Could you elaborate more? If some wonders are bigger than others, could we not just unify the footprint?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 minutes ago, hyperion said:

The issue with with wonders becoming to important is footprint. Some civs might get screwed here.

Part of that is because maps are not properly designed, honestly. Also, trees blocking /everything/. It can be easily accomplished to make trees not block building foundations or the foundations of Wonders. 

[Grapjas]

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

A universal notification could work too:

"{playerName} has started building a Wonder!"

"{playerName} has finished building a Wonder!"

Sounds like something you would only be able to see if you have bribed enemy units, maybe players will actually start bribing units then, lol. 

EDIT: For clarification, i mean the Espionage tech from CC

Edited March 12, 2021 by Grapjas

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I like these. What if by building a Wonder you unlock a 4th phase ("Empire" Phase, possibly), which unlocks these kinds of über technologies? Maybe each structure can have at least one 4th phase über tech, which is unlocked by building the Wonder.

There is a problem with that concept and it is that it is the mode wonder victory it would basically become In a race who reaches phase 4 first.

 

That is a serious problem with your mod.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Palaxin said:

if you ask me 0 A.D. should just incorporate Delenda Est totally

80% The rest must be evaluated.

 

Things that maybe I would not put would be glory (maybe), And I would put a trade mode But that has to be done at a very large programming level, Which is their mode of commerce similar to that of the city builders.

 

See general money with special resources on the map that are not conventional resources.

 

As in rise of nations they did.

[Yekaterina]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

There is a problem with that concept and it is that it is the mode wonder victory it would basically become In a race who reaches phase 4 first.

 

That is a serious problem with your mod.

I partially agree with Lion.Kanzen here even though I have never tried wonder mode. I think if empire phase did not unlock OP techs but instead allowed you to diversify your army composition by training your enemy's unique units from the barracks you have captured. This prevents phase 4 from  being OP but also gives a sufficient reason to build a wonder. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, Grapjas said:

Sounds like something you would only be able to see if you have bribed enemy units, maybe players will actually start bribing units then, lol. 

Honestly, Bribing units should be extended to all Support units, not just Traders. Bribing only traders seemed useless or not cost effective to me. Very limiting. There's better ways of limiting bribes, for instance maybe only 3 bribes can be active at any time.

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

There is a problem with that concept and it is that it is the mode wonder victory it would basically become In a race who reaches phase 4 first.

 

That is a serious problem with your mod.

You gotta do better than that. Go into details of why you think this is true? 

[Palaxin]

9 minutes ago, maroder said:

either that, or a specific one for each civ.

You mean something like über hoplites for Sparta, über elephants for Mauryans etc.? I fear that would be a bit too special. I want to make room for 2-3 choices so you can act according to your current circumstances. However I could imagine there are 5 endgame technologies and each civ can choose 2 or 3 out of them...

[maroder]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

There is a problem with that concept and it is that it is the mode wonder victory it would basically become In a race who reaches phase 4 first.

The whole game is a race of who can produce more units faster and can advance quicker. And it may be balanced by messages

eg:

7 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

{playerName} has started building a Wonder!

and longer build times, so you have the chance to counterattack.

[Grapjas]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Honestly, Bribing units should be extended to all Support units, not just Traders. Bribing only traders seemed useless or not cost effective to me. Very limiting. There's better ways of limiting bribes, for instance maybe only 3 bribes can be active at any time.

Hmm i understand that tech a little different (never used it though). I think it is across all units but the historical explanation is intel came from traders. Not sure though.