Persians: Kardakes

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, Nescio said:

Speaking of which, I also think 0 A.D.'s interpretation of the kardakes is wrong (but that belongs to another thread).

 

Let's discuss, shall we? 

 

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Nescio @fatherbushido

[fatherbushido]

I am not competent enough in history to conclude about them.

In Empire Ascendant, I wonder if they fit in the unit roaster. Moreover, are they actually mercenaries?

In the new edition of *Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars* of Duncan Head (which is imo a good reading between casual reading and academic reading), he pointed some corrections about what he wrote in the last one.

See an extract from page 11 here:

https://books.google.fr/books?id=-7n8CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA11&hl=fr&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

In my opinion they should be kept for scenarios. (But that's just a quick opinion)

Also the building where they are built is a bit confusing and of lower quality than other buildings.

(And there are a lot of marvelous forgotten skirmishes and scenarios map)

Edited May 4, 2020 by fatherbushido

[Nescio]

For a decent (and recent) discussion of the “kardakes”, I highly recommend: https://sci-hub.tw/http://www.jstor.org/stable/41722251

14 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:

In the new edition of *Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars* of Duncan Head (which is imo a good reading between casual reading and academic reading), he pointed some corrections about what he wrote in the last one.

Whilst it may be quite useful for hobbyists (the images certainly look nice), the problem with the work of Duncan Head is that's not always clear what's actually supported by sources and what's his own interpretation.

[fatherbushido]

4 minutes ago, Nescio said:

For a decent (and recent) discussion of the “kardakes”, I highly recommend: https://sci-hub.tw/http://www.jstor.org/stable/41722251

The start of the paper seems clear for a novice like me, but as many papers it's so expensive if you don't have an access... So now we are teased, sum it up please!

6 minutes ago, Nescio said:

the problem with the work of Duncan Head

Yes I put some kind of disclaimer...

[Nescio]

21 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:

The start of the paper seems clear for a novice like me, but as many papers it's so expensive if you don't have an access...

Click on the entire link; sci-hub was created to help people without university library subscriptions. (The alternative, locating and contacting authors, tends to be highly time-consuming.) Paying for individual publications is inadvisable.

21 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:

So now we are teased, sum it up please!

From the article in question:

V. Conclusion
In sum, the κάρδακες must remain somewhat enigmatic. Despite our effort to reconcile often conflicting source traditions, establishing a firm view is predicated on assigning greater validity to some pieces of information. Rather than supporting the belief that the κάρδακες were light infantry, the evidence indicates that they are better understood, in the main, as general-purpose infantry, though it is not impossible that the term could refer to other troop-types,[75] as one interpretation of Xen. Oec. 4.5-6 might suggest. Their deployment at Issus suggests that they were expected to take their place on either side of the Greek mercenary heavy infantry, the possible replacements of the ἀθάνατοι, and were therefore not acting as light infantry. These circumstances are what presumably prompted Arrian to describe the κάρδακες as ὁπλῖται, even if they did not exactly correspond, in their combat role, to the more usual modern interpretations of the term.[76] That Arrian provides the only extant account of the κάρδακες in battle means that it is simply not possible to draw any watertight conclusions about their role, but is arguably enough to affirm that they were not merely untrained recruits, as one interpretation of Strabo would have it, and not exclusively Thracian-style peltasts. The question of ethnicity, however, is more difficult to resolve. They were possibly of mixed ethnic origin as per Briant,[77] but were likely to have been commanded by Persians, to be used when circumstances demanded, as is possibly indicated by Xenophon (Oec. 4.5-6).

Edited May 4, 2020 by Nescio
conclusion

[Genava55]

You can register for free on jstor and have some access each month. Or use sci hub

Edited July 4, 2021 by Genava55

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Yeah can u guys sum it up for me? I am thinking I can cobble together a more accurate representation using the game's current assets. 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Given Nescio's argument, it seems valid to potentially scrap the unit due to the ambiguities surrounding its use.  If we want the Persians to be represented fielding hoplites, there were ample examples of that in simply recruiting Greek mercenaries.  The most famous one that comes to mind is the employment of Memnon of Rhodes and his men during Alexander's campaign. 

[Nescio]

Yes, the Persians did use large numbers of Greek mercenary hoplites. However, the kardakes were neither Greeks, nor armed in Greek fashion, and not champions; whether they were ethnic Persians,  Iranians, or a multi-ethnic mixed force cannot be determined, nor whether they were a standing force, mercenaries, or a war-time levy. Because the immortals only appear in Herodotus and the kardakes primarily in Arrian, the latter might have been a replacement of the latter; in any case, both fought as heavy (i.e. melee) infantry.

Anyway, given how problematic 0 A.D.'s version of the kardakes is, I support removing them from the current Persian roster.

[fatherbushido]

One could perhaps make a scenario map "Issus" where we would use the current models?

(in DE for example)

I remember @Mythos_Ruler was making such maps 10 years ago.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, fatherbushido said:

One could perhaps make a scenario map "Issus" where we would use the current models?

(in DE for example)

I remember @Mythos_Ruler was making such maps 10 years ago.

And drawing, lol , maybe 'Wow' can do the same.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

12 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Given Nescio's argument, it seems valid to potentially scrap the unit due to the ambiguities surrounding its use.  If we want the Persians to be represented fielding hoplites, there were ample examples of that in simply recruiting Greek mercenaries.  The most famous one that comes to mind is the employment of Memnon of Rhodes and his men during Alexander's campaign. 

Maybe some Anatolian Greeks ? I feel they are a bit overlooked.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone For DE (Who has both Greek and Kardakes hoplites), you could keep the Greek hoplite and replace the Kardakes with a Ionian/Phoenician marine mercenary (pictures bellow are a bit speculative):

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Lion.Kanzen]

45 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Maybe some Anatolian Greeks ? I feel they are a bit overlooked.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

 

 

 

 

Esta interesante ese escudo. El diseño.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

4 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Esta interesante ese escudo. El diseño.

https://www.theoi.com/Ther/HusKlazomenaios.html

Quote

Aelian, On Animals 12. 38 (trans. Scholfield) (Greek natural history C2nd A.D.) :
"I have heard that on Klazomenai (Clazomenae) [an island west of Smyrna] there was a sow with wings, and it ravaged the territory of Klazomenai. And Artemon records this in his Annals of Klazomenai. That is why there is a spot named and celebrated as ‘The Place of the Winged Sow,’ and it is famous. But if anyone regards this as myth, let him do so."

[Nescio]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2742

[Genava55]

Up

[Lion.Kanzen]

Ionian Mercenaries.

it is ironic that the alpha is going to be called what they and they are not present 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Genava55]

An interesting thesis:

Bows and Spears in Achaemenid Persia

 

qt9819d1v6.pdf

[alre]

Were hoplites in persian wars always mercenaries? Were they generally ionians? Ionian greeks stayed under persian rule for a long time span, but I don't remember them providing hoplites to persian army, ever. I may very well be missing some known event though.

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, alre said:

Were hoplites in persian wars always mercenaries? Were they generally ionians? Ionian greeks stayed under persian rule for a long time span, but I don't remember them providing hoplites to persian army, ever. I may very well be missing some known event though.

About the account of the ten thousand yes. They were coming from outside the empire (so not Ionians). However in general the Persian army fielded satrap's troops so kinda like vassal troops. Ionians fall in this category. However it seems they fought as a navy mostly. I am not sure there are accounts of them fighting as heavy infantry.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Genava55

[Genava55]

According to Trundle in his book about Greek mercenaries, the Ionians didn't serve as hoplites in the Persian army from their integration in the empire during the end of the 6th century BC. This is due notably to the increasing availability of professional mercenaries from mainland Greece, better than levies.

 

[Genava55]

On 04/05/2020 at 8:24 PM, Nescio said:

For a decent (and recent) discussion of the “kardakes”, I highly recommend: https://sci-hub.tw/http://www.jstor.org/stable/41722251

For those wanting the article, I put it attached with the message.

The Kardakes are part of a real institution of infantry trainees but their role as heavy or light infantry seems to have varied. Probably they are a polyvalent and mobile force. The idea of them being a Persian version of the hoplite is bull***t but they must have been decently armed.

 

10.2307@41722251.pdf

[Genava55]

Herodotus account:

[60] I cannot give an exact breakdown of how many men each contingent contributed to the total, because not one person has recorded this information, but it turned out that there were 1,700,000 men altogether in the land army. The census was conducted as follows. Ten thousand men were assembled in a single area and packed as closely together as possible; a circle was drawn round the outside of the body of men (who were then dismissed) and a waist-high wall was built around the circle. Then more men were introduced into the enclosed area, and so on until everyone had been counted. After the census, the men were organized into contingents based on nationality.

[61] Here are the peoples which made up Xerxes’ army. First, there were the Persians, dressed as follows. On their heads they wore tiaras, as they call them, which are loose, felt caps, and their bodies were clothed in colourful tunics with sleeves (and breastplates)† of iron plate, looking rather like fish-scales. Their legs were covered in trousers and instead of normal shields they carried pieces of wickerwork. They had quivers hanging under their shields, short spears, large bows, arrows made of cane, and also daggers hanging from their belts down beside their right thighs. They were commanded by Otanes, whose daughter Amestris was Xerxes’ wife. In times past the Greeks used to call Persians Cephenes (even though both they and their neighbours called them Artaei), but then Perseus, the son of Danaë and Zeus, came to Cepheus the son of Belus, married his daughter Andromeda, and had a son, whom he called Perses. Cepheus had no male children, so Perseus left Perses there, and as a result the Persians are named after Perses.

[62] The Median contingent wore the same clothes as the Persians, since it was in fact a Median style of clothing, rather than a Persian one. Their commander was an Achaemenid called Tigranes. Medes used to be called Arians by everybody, but when Medea of Colchis left Athens and arrived in their country—this is what the Medes themselves say—they too changed their name.

The Cissian contingent was clothed and equipped in the Persian style, except that they wore turbans instead of caps. They were commanded by Anaphes the son of Otanes.

The Hyrcanians also had the same equipment as the Persians, and were commanded by Megapanus, who later became the governor of Babylon.

[63] The Assyrian contingent wore on their heads either bronze helmets or plaited helmets of a peculiarly foreign design which is hard to describe. Their shields, spears, and daggers resembled Egyptian ones, and they also carried wooden clubs with iron studs, and wore linen breastplates. These are the people the Greeks call Syrians, but they were called Assyrians by the Persian invaders. Their commander was Otaspes the son of Artachaees.

[64] The Bactrian contingent wore headgear which was very similar to that of the Medes, and were armed with native cane bows and short spears. The Sacae, a Scythian tribe, had as headgear kurbasias whose crowns were stiffened into an upright point, and wore trousers. They carried native bows and daggers, and also battleaxes called sagareis. They were in fact Scythians from Amyrgium, but they were known as Sacae because that is what the Persians call all Scythians. The commander of both the Bactrian and Sacian contingents was Hystaspes, the son of Darius and Cyrus’ daughter Atossa.

[65] Indian gear consisted of cotton clothing, cane bows and cane arrows with iron heads. For the duration of this expedition they were assigned to the command of Pharnazathres the son of Artabates.

[66] The Arians were equipped like the Bactrians, except that their bows were in the Median style. Their commander was Sisamnes the son of Hydarnes.

Also fitted out like the Bactrians were the Parthians and Chorasmians, commanded by Artabazus the son of Pharnaces; the Sogdians, commanded by Azanes the son of Artaeus; and the Gandarians and Dadicae, commanded by Artyphius the son of Artabanus.

[67] Caspian equipment consisted of jackets, native cane bows, and akinakeis. Their commander was Ariomardus the brother of Artyphius.

The Sarangae were conspicuous for their coloured clothing. They wore knee-high boots and carried bows and Median-style spears. They were commanded by Pherendates the son of Megabazus.

The Pactyes wore jackets and were armed with native bows and daggers. Their commander was Artayntes the son of Ithamitres.

[68] The Utians, Mycians, and Paricanians were fitted out like the Pactyes. The Utians and Mycians were commanded by Arsamenes the son of Darius, and the Paricanians by Siromitres the son of Oeobazus.

[69] The Arabians wore belted zeiras and carried on their right sides long, reflexible bows. The Ethiopians were dressed in leopard skins and lion pelts, and were armed with bows made out of palm fronds. These bows were long, at least four cubits in length, and their arrows were short and tipped not with iron but with a head made from sharpened stone—the kind of stone they also use to engrave signet-rings. They carried spears as well, whose heads were made out of gazelles’ horns sharpened like the head of a lance, and also studded clubs. When they go into battle they paint half of their bodies with chalk and half with ochre. The commander of the Arabians and the Ethiopians from south of Egypt was Arsames, the son of Darius and Cyrus’ daughter Artystone, who was his favourite wife. He had a statue of her made out of beaten gold.

[70] So Arsames was the commander of the Ethiopians from south of Egypt, as well as of the Arabians, but there were two lots of Ethiopians in the army. The eastern Ethiopians were assigned to the Indian contingent; these Ethiopians are exactly the same as the others to look at, but they speak a different language and their hair is different. The eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while the Libyan ones have curlier hair than any other people in the world. The Asian Ethiopians were equipped more or less in the same fashion as the Indians, except that they wore a head-dress consisting of a horse’s scalp, including the ears and mane. The mane acted as a crest, and the horse’s ears were stiffened into an upright position. Instead of regular shields they had targes made out of crane skins.

[71] The Libyans came wearing leather clothing and armed with javelins whose ends had been burnt into sharp points. Their commander was Massages the son of Oärizus.

[72] The Paphlagonian contingent wore plaited helmets on their heads and were armed with small shields, medium-sized spears, and javelins and daggers as well. On their feet they wore native boots which reached halfway up their shins. The Ligyan contingent had the same equipment as the Paphlagonians, and so did the Matieneans, Mariandynians, and Syrians (whom the Persians call Cappadocians). Dotus the son of Megasidrus was in command of the Paphlagonians and the Matieneans, and Gobryas the son of Darius and Artystone was in command of the Mariandynians, Ligyes, and Syrians.

[73] The Phrygians’ equipment was very similar to that of the Paphlagonians, with only minor differences. According to the Macedonians, the Phrygians were called Briges for as long as they lived in Europe next to the Macedonians, but then when they moved to Asia they changed their name along with their country. The Armenians were fitted out just like the Phrygians—but then they were originally emigrants from Phrygia. Artochmes, who was married to one of Darius’ daughters, was in command of both the Armenians and the Phrygians.

[74] The Lydians’ equipment was not very different from Greek. A long time ago, the Lydians were known as Maeonians, but they changed their name when they named themselves after Lydus the son of Atys. The Mysians wore a native style of helmet on their heads and were armed with small shields and javelins whose ends had been burnt into sharp points. They were originally emigrants from Lydia, and are also known as Olympieni, after Mount Olympus. The Lydians and the Mysians were under the command of Artaphrenes the son of Artaphrenes, who was jointly responsible, with Datis, for the invasion at Marathon.

[75] The Thracian contingent wore fox-skin caps on their heads and were dressed in tunics with colourful zeiras on top; their feet and lower legs were covered in boots made out of fawn-skin. They also carried javelins, bucklers, and small daggers. After they moved from Europe to Asia they were called the Bithynians, but, as they say themselves, before that they were called the Strymonians, because they lived on the River Strymon. They say that they were driven out of their original homeland by the Teucrians and the Mysians. These Asian Thracians were commanded by Bassaces the son of Artabanus.

[76] 〈The Pisidae〉† carried small shields of untreated oxhide. Every man among them was armed with two hunting-spears in the Lycian style, and wore a bronze helmet on his head. Each helmet had the ears and horns of an ox, also in bronze, attached to it, and had a crest as well. They wore red cloths wrapped around their lower legs. There is an oracle of Ares in their country.

[77] The Cabalians (who are known as Lasonians, despite being of Maeonian stock) were fitted out in the same way as the Cilicians, and so I will describe their equipment when I come to the Cilician contingent in my account.

The Milyans carried short spears and wore cloaks fastened with a brooch. Some of them had Lycian-style bows and wore on their heads helmets made out of leather. The whole Milyan contingent was under the command of Badres the son of Hystanes.

[78] The Moschians wore wooden helmets on their heads and carried shields and spears which were short, but with long points. The Tibarenians, Macrones, and Mossynoecians had the same equipment as the Moschians. The Moschians and Tibarenians formed a single contingent under the command of Ariomardus, the son of Darius and Parmys, who was the daughter of Smerdis and granddaughter of Cyrus. The Macrones and Mossynoecians together formed another contingent under the command of Artayctes the son of Cherasmis, who was the governor of Sestus on the Hellespont.

[79] The Mares wore plaited native helmets on their heads, and carried small shields of animal skin and javelins. The Colchians wore wooden helmets on their heads, carried small shields of untreated oxhide and short spears, and were armed with knives as well. Pharandates the son of Teäspis was in command of the Mares and the Colchians.

The Alarodian and Saspeiran troops were equipped like the Colchians, and commanded by Masistius the son of Siromitres.

[80] The tribes who had come from the islands in the Red Sea to take part in the expedition—the islands where the Persian king settles the people known as ‘the Dispossessed’—closely resembled the Medes in respect of both clothing and weaponry. These islanders were commanded by Mardontes the son of Bagaeus, who was one of the Persian commanders a year later at the battle of Mycale, where he died.

[81] These were the tribes and peoples who marched by land and were organized into infantry contingents. I have already given the names of the commanders of this division, whose job it was also to organize and count the troops, and to appoint officers to take charge of the brigades of 10,000 and the battalions of 1,000; the leaders of the companies of 100 and the sections of 10 were appointed by the brigade-commanders. There were also other officers in command of the various regiments and tribal units. Anyway, the commanding officers were as stated.