current team bonuses

[Nescio]

Currently 0 A.D. has the following team bonuses:

• Athenians: Allied Warships −25% construction time.
• Britons: Allied Healers −20% resource costs.
• Carthaginians: Allied Markets +10% international trade bonus.
• Gauls: Allied Structures −20% technology research time.
• Iberians: Allied Citizen Javelinists −10% resource costs.
• Kushites: Allied Elephants −20% resource costs and training time.
• Macedonians: Allies +20% barter sell prices.
• Mauryas: Allied Temples −50% resource costs and building time; Temple technologies −50% resource costs and research time.
• Persians: Allied Land Traders +15% trade gain.
• Ptolemies: Allies +1.0 food trickle rate.
• Romans: Allied Citizen Infantry −10% training time.
• Seleucids: Allied Civil Centers −20% resource costs.
• Spartans: Allied Citizen Infantry Spearmen +10% health.

As you can see not all team bonuses are equally good. The Macedonian bonus is simply great; the Iberian, Ptolemaic, and Roman bonuses can be quite useful in early game, the Persian later on, the Seleucid on large maps. The Briton bonus seems rather limited (who trains healers?), the Athenian is only useful on water maps, the Kushite only for civs that can train elephants (a minority). Maybe some team bonuses ought to be replaced.

Other thoughts or suggestions?

[Lion.Kanzen]

Kushite is bad bonus if you haven't elephant civ. Worst bonus so far.

Related with my bonus.

Suggestion compare these with AoE and AoE II. Those are real bonus.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Lion.Kanzen

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

The flaw with the Briton team bonus lies in the healer.  Healers alone are simply purposeless unless there is a secondary purpose provided.  I personally wouldn't be against the idea of them converting units, but I'm sure that alternate options; priests served many roles that could be represented such as a simple aura that improves attack or improves gathering speed.  The list goes on.

[fatherbushido]

8 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

The flaw with the Briton team bonus lies in the healer.  Healers alone are simply purposeless unless there is a secondary purpose provided.  I personally wouldn't be against the idea of them converting units, but I'm sure that alternate options; priests served many roles that could be represented such as a simple aura that improves attack or improves gathering speed.  The list goes on.

The team bonus described in the design doc is:
 

Quote

 

Name: Druides

History: The Druids of the Celts maintained an organized religion that advanced the technology of their people even during wartime.

Effect: Bonus to tech speed.

 

Also gaul and brit were the same civ before.

A good source is:

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est/blob/master/simulation/data/auras/teambonuses/gaul_player_team_bonus.json

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est/blob/master/simulation/data/auras/teambonuses/brit_player_team_bonus.json

(It seems the author of that mod have spent quite a few time in that game universe).

;-)

[fatherbushido]

Actually someone with same nick as me added related things to Zero AD . Something like a discussion occurred here: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D502

Names probably was provided by someone who likes giving names (like in https://code.wildfiregames.com/D449).

[Genava55]

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

Athenians: Allied Warships −25% construction time.

Should be better to have a bonus split between navy and economy: example Allied Warships −15% construction time and Allies +10% barter sell prices. Simply to avoid useless bonus on land maps.

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

Britons: Allied Healers −20% resource costs.

Since Caesar emphasizes the training of Gallic youths as druids in Britain, it seems a historically coherent bonus. It is simply the healers that are useless currently in the game.

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

Gauls: Allied Structures −20% technology research time.

The Gauls weren't in technological advance, they weren't "retards" or "primitives" like 19th century historians portrayed them but they weren't in advance in regards of the others. A few elements of their metallurgy were really innovative but that doesn't make them the best ironsmiths. Actually the thing that had huge impact on nearby populations was:

- Slave trading, they were really selling slaves at a competitive price.

- Selling weapons, especially swords and scabbards (found in Spain, Italy, Crimea, Thracia etc., even in foreign cultures). Selling adornments, like fibula.

- Strabo talks about them exporting resin, pitch, honey, wax, amber, salt, woolens and leather products.

- Mercenaries. That was one of their main asset.

 

 

[Nescio]

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Should be better to have a bonus split between navy and economy: example Allied Warships −15% construction time and Allies +10% barter sell prices. Simply to avoid useless bonus on land maps.

Or maybe all ships and land traders −20% training time.

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Since Caesar emphasizes the training of Gallic youths as druids in Britain, it seems a historically coherent bonus. It is simply the healers that are useless currently in the game.

I was about to suggest a discount on temple technologies, but the Mauryas already have that.

Any other things the Britons were known for? All I can think of right now is that Carthage imported tin from Cornwall and surroundings, but that's an accident of geography.

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The Gauls weren't in technological advance, they weren't "retards" or "primitives" like 19th century historians portrayed them but they weren't in advance in regards of the others. A few elements of their metallurgy were really innovative but that doesn't make them the best ironsmiths. Actually the thing that had huge impact on nearby populations was:

- Selling weapons, especially swords and scabbards (found in Spain, Italy, Crimea, Thracia etc., even in foreign cultures). Selling adornments, like fibula.

- Strabo talks about them exporting resin, pitch, honey, wax, amber, salt, woolens and leather products.

How about a resource discount on blacksmith technologies then instead?

15 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Kushite is bad bonus if you haven't elephant civ. Worst bonus so far.

@Sundiata, any historically inspired suggestions for an alternative?

[Sundiata]

18 minutes ago, Nescio said:

@Sundiata, any historically inspired suggestions for an alternative?

They were a major source of gold and ivory. Also iron, slaves, cattle and exotic animals. They always had far flung trade connections and traded in luxury products. So you could give them some kind of trade bonus. A higher rate of metal income from trading? 

They also built deep wells and water reservoirs to farm and keep livestock alive on the margins of the Sahel. A higher rate of food income from trading? 

[fatherbushido]

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

It is simply the healers that are useless currently in the game.

It's an excellent start for discussion which will lead to the point of view we consider (random list: [single player, multiplayer, lobby multiplayer, history, realism, code]).

For example it was suggested that gauls and/or brits could use druid for attacking.

- history?

- gameplay?

- balance?

- realism?

- code?

I think you forum people have the answers!

(I also think that at this point what started 20 years ago could only survive with mods. Multiplayer lobby player should have their mod, something handled by a lobby admin with a message inviting to use it. I don't know if they do that, but that would be good for us.)

[Genava55]

22 minutes ago, Nescio said:

How about a resource discount on blacksmith technologies then instead?

Why not. Could be a discount in wood and metal, Gauls made a few type of pre-manufactured bars, easier to trade and to process.
The other thing interesting I see is the invention of the reaper by the Gauls:

30 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Any other things the Britons were known for? All I can think of right now is that Carthage imported tin from Cornwall and surroundings, but that's an accident of geography.

There was a lot of mineral resources in Britain, it boomed during the Roman Empire but mostly because the resources weren't exploited before (Romans have bring hydraulic mining with hushing). Although, yes Britons were good with tin trading, good at working with bronze and gold. Since there was some trading and merchant connection on the Atlantic facade, maybe a bonus especially for maritime trade.

Otherwise, a huge part of the Iron Age society there, was cattle and pasturing.

[Nescio]

37 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

They were a major source of gold and ivory. Also iron, slaves, cattle and exotic animals. They always had far flung trade connections and traded in luxury products. So you could give them some kind of trade bonus. A higher rate of metal income from trading? 

They also built deep wells and water reservoirs to farm and keep livestock alive on the margins of the Sahel. A higher rate of food income from trading? 

Carthage and Persia already have trade gain bonuses, and rightly so.

Maybe a discount on farm field costs? Or a small food discount on technologies?

9 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Otherwise, a huge part of the Iron Age society there, was cattle and pasturing.

Perhaps a discount on domestic animals then?

20 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:

- gameplay?

- balance?

@borg-, @Stockfish, @ValihrAnt, and others.

[Genava55]

28 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:

For example it was suggested that gauls and/or brits could use druid for attacking.

- history?

There are arguments in favor like the fact that Gallic leaders could be druid. The irish mythology is full of characters with a mixed role as priest and warrior, often labelled by the two names.

But for example during the attack on Ynys Môn, the druids do not seem to defend themselves. Moreover druids were exempt of military service, so probably they weren't usually skilled warriors.

Although it is probable they had the right to bear arms and ride horses.

[sarcoma]

Healers are being used regularly right now by several players.  ~10 monks with army. Could be buffed for brits without getting to previous alpha Cunobelin. I think borg- changed the stance in his mod. idk if form passive to standground or aggressive.

Edited January 17, 2020 by sarcoma

[Lion.Kanzen]

Healers can do it better, but this is a kind off topic that can be nice discuss.

Is quite interesting there's no much great military bonus to make "combos".

[sarcoma]

On 1/17/2020 at 1:36 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

Is quite interesting there's no much great military bonus to make "combos".

I think most top players would disagree with this. A good combo army is stronger than a 1 unit army. Or do you mean like Hannibal Barca bonus for allies?

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 1/18/2020 at 10:01 PM, sarcoma said:

I think most top players would disagree with this. A good combo army is stronger than a 1 unit army. Or do you mean like Hannibal Barca bonus for allies?

no. Bonus that  your civs features. 

example. AoE 2.

Quote

Persians and Spanish
Persians are widely considered the best booming civ in the game, with extra resources at the start, faster town centers, and faster docks. This allows them to quickly get ahead of other civs in villager production. Later in the game, when villager production gets less important, the Spanish make up the shortfall.
Spanish also have nice bonuses. Faster build time means more villager efficiency, and their blacksmith bonus allows them to conserve gold. In the late game, when gold mines run out, blunting the Persians’ advantages, the Spanish +33% trade is huge, allowing competent players to consistently outproduce opposing civ

 

or

Quote

 

Another post with another imba idea:

Bonuses:

• cheaper infranty (goths),

• faster infranty (celts)

• faster attack speed infranty (japanese).

Techs:

• Druzhina (slavs),

• Bearded axe

UU:

• Throwing axeman

Team Bonus : Condotiero.

Tech tree: anything with full infranty,

Are you ready for super splash damage throwing axemans?

Keep note there is a lot of variants of that. By modyfing mostly Unique techs/Unique unit you could get variant with super condotieros, you could get variant with super berserkers, you could get variant with super illegal eagle warriors, super huskarls or just give pierce armor instead of celt movement speed bonus and go full champion.

Quote

Aztec & Goth =
aztec have "All Military units are created 15% faster" and goth have team bonus(so aztec get them as well) "Team Bonus: Barracks operate 20% faster."
 

https://steamcommunity.com/app/221380/discussions/0/828939163660903019/

Quote

Spoiler

Aztecs: Relics generate 33% more gold.

Berbers: Genitours are available at the Archery Range in the Castle Age.

Britons: Archery Ranges work 20% faster.

Bulgarians: Blacksmiths work 50% faster.

Burmese: Relics are visible on the map from the game start.

Byzantines: Monks heal 50% faster.

Celts: Siege Workshops work 20% faster.

Chinese: Farms provide +45 food.

Cumans: Palisade Walls have +50% hit points (HP).

Ethiopians: Towers and Outposts have +3 Line of Sight (LOS).

Franks: Knight line has +2 LOS.

Goths: Barracks work 20% faster.

Huns: Stables work 20% faster.

Incas: Farms are built 100% faster.

Indians: Camel Rider line has +6 attack against buildings. Ranged Camel units have +5 attack against buildings.

Italians: Condottieri are available at the Barracks in the Imperial Age.

Japanese: Galleys have +50% LOS.

Khmer: Scorpions have +1 range.

Koreans: Mangonel line minimum range reduced to 1 in the Definitive Edition, reduced by 1 in The Forgotten. Mangonel line maximum range increased by 1in The Conquerors.

Lithuanians: Monasteries work 20% faster.

Magyars: All foot archers (excluding elite and non-elite Skirmishers; including Imperial Skirmishers) have +2 LOS.

Malay: Docks and Harbors have +100% LOS.

Malians: University researches 80% faster.

Mayans: Walls and Gates are 50% cheaper (Stone Walls -2 stone per segment, Palisade Walls -1 wood).

Mongols: Scout Cavalry line has +2 LOS.

Persians: Knight line has +2 attack against archers.

Portuguese: Free Cartography from the Dark Age.

Saracens: All foot archers have +2 attack against standard buildings.

Slavs: Military production buildings (except Castles and Kreposts) provide +5 population.

Spanish: Trade Carts and Trade Cogs return 25% more gold.

Tatars: All Cavalry Archers have + 2 LOS.

Teutons: All units resist conversion.

Turks: Gunpowder units are created 25% faster.

Vietnamese: Elite Skirmishers can be upgraded to Imperial Skirmishers in the Imperial Age.

Vikings: Docks are 15% cheaper.

 

 

[Nescio]

On 1/17/2020 at 10:30 AM, Genava55 said:

The Gauls weren't in technological advance, they weren't "retards" or "primitives" like 19th century historians portrayed them but they weren't in advance in regards of the others. A few elements of their metallurgy were really innovative but that doesn't make them the best ironsmiths. Actually the thing that had huge impact on nearby populations was:

- Slave trading, they were really selling slaves at a competitive price.

- Selling weapons, especially swords and scabbards (found in Spain, Italy, Crimea, Thracia etc., even in foreign cultures). Selling adornments, like fibula.

- Strabo talks about them exporting resin, pitch, honey, wax, amber, salt, woolens and leather products.

- Mercenaries. That was one of their main asset.

On 1/17/2020 at 1:47 PM, Nescio said:

How about a resource discount on blacksmith technologies then instead?

D2669