Problem: Extremely nice artwork depics complete fantasy city

[Stan`]

You realize they are both the same artwork right ? I mean the first post image is literally the one that is in the game...

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Nescio]

4 minutes ago, Stan` said:

You realize they are both the same artwork right ? I mean the first post image is literally the one that is in the game...

There is a tiny difference:

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

Actually there is something else, there is currently no one to edit that render. If you want another more realistic one, you might have to commission an artist to do a new one...

Okay the city is bigger that it would have been but is it really that important ? The goal of this image is to promote the game, and have a wow factor. I believe both things are met. It's also a nice ingame background isn't it ? Removing the balcony is easy, that's a one line change in the game.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

While your criticisms are mostly valid from a scholarly POV, the background is a representation of the game itself, as mentioned by someone else. In that capacity the depiction is perfect.

If you come to the forum with strong opinions, then you must expect a strong reaction in return. No need to cry foul.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

The balcony is a separate piece... The files are here: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/art/textures/ui/pregame/backgrounds

You should really use SVN. Else you will always be out of touch...

 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Sundiata]

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But even on other subjects, I do assume that I have a right to express thoughts freely. Also when they are critical.

Nobody denied your right to talk. If you make patently untrue claims, then I am also allowed to disprove them. 

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I see a tendency here of taking the large Egyptian temples constructed by Thutmose III and Rameses II and other pharaos, as evidence for Kushite mega-architecture and mega-cities, because Kushite rulers renovated or added features or courtyards to existing structures.

This is a lie. All of the architecture referenced was built by Kushites during the Napatan and Meroitic Periods. The only element that was originally Egyptian were those small chambers in the back of the Amun temple of Napata. Everything else is Napatan or Meroitic Period Kushite construction. I posted well over a hundred sources (most of them academic) and I even shared a PDF in the previous page, written by, among other specialist, Dr. Timothy Kendall, discussing the history and archaeology of some of the main temples and palaces at Jebel Barkal. Dr. Kendall is "a fellow at Harvard University's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute and an expert in Nubian Studies, served as associate curator of the Department of Egyptian and Near Eastern Art at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, and developed the "Kush: Lost Kingdom of the Nile" exhibition for the Brockton Museum, vice president of the International Society of Nubian Studies" and director of archaeological excavations at Jebel Barkal between 1986 and present. I'll take his word over yours any day. 

If I wanted to share Egyptian temples in Kush, I would have shared New Kingdom Egyptian temples like the temples of Soleb, Abu Simbel, Derr, Amada, Aksha, Beit el Wali or Wadi es Sebua. But I didn't! I focused entirely on those structures that were built by Kushites in Sudan during the Napatan and Meroitic Periods. I even tried to avoid Lower Nubia, on the Egyptian side of the modern border, to avoid unnecessary confusion. 

As I already pointed out, Meroë and Napata were far greater in size than what is depicted in that render, and the size of the structures on that avenue aren't even exaggerated (you could argue that the platform for temple 300 is a meter too tall in relation to the structure, but then we're really nitpicking). The palace should even be noticeably bigger than it is, and there could be several of them, as was the case in the aforementioned cities. Not even those big statues in front of temple 300 are exaggerated in size......

One of the Colossi of Tabo (there's two of them, the same size): King Natakamani, early 1st century AD, Meroitic Kush, in front of the National Museum of Sudan in Khartoum:

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

We have full reconstructions by historians of Greek and Roman and Hellenistic cities, we attempt to make those cities resemble that to some degree. Here I see ruins of temples in Egyptian style, and a few unique features such as the pyramids and the unique mud-architecture. Then I see byzantine elements in later architecture of the region, which could date within the period of the game.

Yes, Kushite architecture had a lot in common with Ancient Egyptian architecture, this is hardly news to anyone on the forum. They shared a lot of history and culture, even since pre-Dynastic times. There is literally nothing Byzantine in this render. 

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Aithiopia is used here in its classical sense.

Then why do you share a picture of a vaulted ceiling from the modern day country of Ethiopia, if you could as well have shared a picture of a vaulted ceiling from Sudan? As early as Kerma Period, both of the main proposed reconstructions of the Western Deffufa have vaulted chambers:

 

I actually remembered a stone vault in one of the tomb entrances at El Kurru. This would have supported a hell of a lot of weight (backfilled earth rubble):

 

Most of the royal tombs were actually vaults cut from solid rock (Egyptian goddess, Isis or Mut on the left):

 

Or maybe something like this Nubian example from the Nubian Museum in Aswan?

 

Karanog is also Lower Nubian, currently Southernmost Egypt, but was a Meroitic governors residence. Because it's one of the youngest palaces on the list, and on account of the dryness of the area, this was the best preserved Meroitic palace, until it was submerged by Lake Nasser. On the left an archetype Nubian Vault. In the middle construction technique for an upper floor is shown and in the image on the right, it's hard to see, but there's a "great staircase" supported by that arch.

  

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Sundiata, you asked whether I was "talking about those Nubian Vaults? You might want to look up what a Nubian vault is". Indeed everything makes sense when the building is not built of stone. A clay-vault is the most reasonable of things. But since that structure has the same colour as the stone-structures, how is one to know that it is mud, clay and mudbrick: It is contributing to the feeling of inauthenticity. Two or even three storeys of mudbrick, accessed with latters, we can see evidence of such architecture still in use today.

Palaces and temples were invariably plastered with a white lime-plaster. Stone, mudbrick and fired brick elite structures would have all looked more or less the same from the outside. Not muddy. But smooth white (possibly with a yellowish patina building up over time, from the sand and rains). Also, I've seen examples of stone vaults as well... I couldn't be arsed to save them because I didn't think someone was going to be this dismissive of Kushite architecture. Next time I bump into the stone vaults, I'll let you know [edit: see stone vault above].

And why are you talking about ladders? They built staircases. Here's one from inside a Pylon of the Amun Temple in Dangeil: 

A lot of the palaces also have remains of staircases, sometimes more than one. I'm pretty certain it wasn't limited to royal architecture either. 

 

Kushite staircases could be quite monumental. Some of the subterranean staircases to the tombs of El Kurru, cut from the rock, are the biggest I've seen so far. 

 

Just now, Genava55 said:

Kushite civilization during the Meroitic period has the difficulty to inheriting several monuments from previous periods and keeping them in function without important updates in the architecture and in the design.

However, the Kushites building in the game do not seem to overuse Egyptian architecture, this is the case only in key buildings where the argument of a legacy can be justified (like the wonder)

This is not the case with our models. As I already said, I completely ignored pre-existing Egyptian architecture in Sudan for my references, even though Kushites did indeed maintain a good number of them. The wonder is based on temple 300 from Musawwarat es Sufra, Sudan, Meroitic Period,  3rd century BC, which I already pointed out in my previous post. It's not Egyptian! 

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

the palatial structure between the temples looks like it is stone, but it should be mudbrick, and even then it should be the tallest structure in the whole cityscape.

The palace is covered in lime-plaster and they often used fired brick for such structures, and no, the pylons of the Amun temple dominated the landscape.  

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But players will say "those Kushites really built awesome cities on par with Rome and Athens in their glory days, and temples as large as the Hagia Sophia. Wow." But they just didn't right?

They did build awesome cities. Why compare it Rome and Athens? If you must, several Napatan and Meroitic temples were bigger than any of the temples that the Athenians ever built. In fact, the Amun temple of Napata was built centuries before the Classical Period had even started, when Rome had barely even been founded, and the Amun Temple of Dangeil was built over a century after Athens had been conquered by Rome... You know who wasn't conquered by Rome?

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

The people on the street there are still extremely small,

Have you actually bothered to look at the size of the people in the references, both in the reconstructions as well as the aerial shots of the archaeological sites that I shared on the previous page? I know, it's hard to spot them, because they actually do look extremely small compared to the structures... Some of their temples were absolutely huge, why is that so hard for you to believe even when pictures of the remains of such temples are staring you in the face? Cognitive dissonance? 

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But the whole central megatemple and massive central axis boulevard are missing

I already pointed this out. They did have processional avenues linking the palaces, temples and Nile river.

Here's some more bite-sized info since you weren't interested in Dr. Kendall's extensive description of the sites at Jebel Barkal.

The Meroitic Palace and Royal City, by M. Maillot:

https://issuu.com/sudarchrs/docs/s_n19_maillot

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Look, the city in that render is so awesome, that if a Roman emperor had walked out on that balcony he would have said "wow, I want the view of Rome from my palace to look like this - can you send up some of your expert Kushite engineers and architects up to us, please, so ours can learn from them."

Hands up if you think that is realistic. I rest my case.

Condescending and facetious. Rome was literally a village when Kushites were building monumental temple complexes at Jebel Barkal and other places like Kawa. One of the earliest examples of monumental Kushite architecture is the Western Deffufa in Kerma, dates to roughly 2000 BC, 1st Kingdom of Kush, Sudan. This is monumental architecture that predates even the rise of the Mycenaeans! And it's still standing... 

^4000 years ago... These people have a long-lasting legacy of monumental architecture that predates even the Mycenaeans. These are the same guys that in conjunction with the Hyksos from the north, brought the Middle Kingdom to its knees.  

 

Just now, Stan` said:

Okay the city is bigger that it would have been but is it really that important ?

It really isn't. It's way smaller. Why do you give this guy any credit at all when it comes to a subject he admitted that he didn't have any expertise on, just one page ago.

 

 

Just now, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

While your criticisms are mostly valid from a scholarly POV,

Appart from the balcony, he doesn't show any scholarly integrity whatsoever and has deliberately smeared me by claiming that I misrepresented Egyptian architecture as Kushite, even though I didn't, and even though I shared literature and sources by the worlds' foremost experts in the field disproving almost everything he said, and he couldn't even be arsed to read it. 

Might I remind everybody that this is the same guy who proposed a magnetically levitating statue for the Ptolemies as well as a mountain sculpted in the likeness of Alexander the Great as the Macedonian wonder. Even his references for the Ptolemaic towers aren't even primary references, but come from a Roman mosaic in Italy, full of actual fantasy creatures and monsters... I'm not even saying that there is something wrong with the tower, but I've always strongly preferred to use primary sources from the start. Now suddenly primary sources, like actual archaeology, can just be thrown out the window because some dude says he doesn't believe Kushites could build such stuff, based on literally nothing more than his own ignorance and biases...?    

Yes, the balustrade is incorrect. Pretty much everything else he said was nonsense. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Sundiata

[Genava55]

34 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

This is not the case with our models. As I already said, I completely ignored pre-existing Egyptian architecture in Sudan for my references, even though Kushites did indeed maintain a good number of them. The wonder is based on temple 300 from Musawwarat es Sufra, Sudan, Meroitic Period,  3rd century BC, which I already pointed out in my previous post. It's not Egyptian! 

Sorry mate. Thanks to correct me. I totally trust you on the matter.

 

34 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

They did build awesome cities. Why compare it Rome and Athens? If you must, several Napatan and Meroitic temples were bigger than any of the temples that the Athenians ever built. In fact, the Amun temple of Napata was built centuries before the Classical Period had even started, when Rome had barely even been founded, and the Amun Temple of Dangeil was built over a century after Athens had been conquered by Rome... You know who wasn't conquered by Rome?

I think his issue arises from the lack of understanding the illustration is inspired by the render in game.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Genava55

[Sundiata]

Just now, Genava55 said:

Sorry mate. Thanks to correct me. I totally trust you on the matter.

No need to apologize and no need to trust me either. These things can easily be corroborated by simple google searches. If you want specific academic sources, I can, and have provided those several times.

 

Just now, Genava55 said:

I think his issue arises from the lack of understanding the illustration is inspired by the render in game.

It's not, that's the problem. His arguments are based on the premise that I'm misrepresenting Egyptian and Byzantine structures as Kushite (which is a ludicrous claim to make in the Information Age), and that it's somehow laughable that Kushites built large city centers with processional avenues and monumental architecture that rivaled and in some cases even predated that of the Hellenistic world. He has no interest in the Kushite world. He just can't pallet the idea of these "βάρβαροι"looking anywhere near as flush as his precious Greeks. That's what this is about...  

[LordGood]

I was hoping to get something constructive out of this, but I'm a bit disappointed by these unsubstantiated claims. Even more so by the dismissal of academic sources. I did learn a new french word though

Kudos on the defense Sundiata that was something to behold haha, and I was counting on it. Thanks for pulling through

Anaxandrias, I was hoping a scholarly fellow like yourself would be ecstatic to have this much academic material available to study about a kingdom that is largely obscured from the public view, and take it into account. Even an art school pleb like myself had a great deal of fun learning about this fantastic new setting in a historical era I am indeed quite interested in. I'll admit I wasn't until Sundiata started posting his reference materials. I took to it like a fish to water and I was hoping you would as well. It's not too late to do so, its just as fascinating as when it was posted.

Ignoring it for the sake of a 'feeling' something is wrong to stick by your audacious claims has seriously wounded your academic credibility here, not so much the claim itself.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

Let me try to summarize your arguments

- Invalid balcony -> Solution: Remove it

- Incorrect roofs -> @Sundiata proved otherwise using actual source

- City too big to be true -> Once again @Sundiata provided sources

So what do we still disagree on ?

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[sphyrth]

Easy there. He was just asking you a question. It would be simple if you just answered.

Anyway, we're waiting for the substance of your arguments. So, don't you worry.

[Stan`]

13 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I have not even started to reply. Will you hear counter-arguments or have you already decided?

I will gladly hear them. As @sphyrth said, I was merely summarizing to make sure we are on the same page.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

Alright then, let's wait for your answer.

1 minute ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

and secondly to parade the evidence fairly in front of you.

You realize that's toxic behavior right ?

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

47 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

To present the evidence obtained by inquiry fairly in good order in front of discussion participants?

No, that's alright. What is not is to parade because you are right. Being right should be enough. Sticking it into everybody's face is childish, and calls for more bad behavior.

[Sundiata]

@Anaxandridas ho Skandiates have fun with your scholarly investigations. 

By the way, I just remembered that the idea was even to replace temple 300 from Musawwarat es Sufra with temple M250 from the outskirts of Meroë, as the new Kushite wonder. 

I had already made the model a few months ago, but still need to make some adjustments and texture stuff more properly. 

Any thoughts to share on this render? I'm curious what you think...

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Sundiata

[Stan`]

It looks pretty impressive, but you should use the "Edge Split" modifier, so that flat areas are actually flat, and areas that should have a little curve can have one. Example courtesy of @Enrique.