Are Rams OP?

[Unit 1]

Do you guys thinks rams are too powerful? If not how do you counter them?

[nani]

Counters to ram by effectiveness: other rams, elephants, sword units, spear units, women and the least slingers.

[Boudica]

Notice that there are basically no ranged units in the list. Ranged units typically only deal pierce attack, which is completely useless against rams. I've often seen people trying to destroy rams with a bunch of archers and that's when they start to complain.

You'll usually have access to either citizen-soldier sword infantry (Romans, Iberians, Kushites), cavalry (Celts, Athens, Persia), or both (Mauryans), so it's a good idea to have some of those prepared when you expect a ram attack. There are some civilizations that either need a special Town Phase building for swordsmen (military colony for Ptolemies, mercenary barracks for Carthage), or you might need to get to the City Phase first for better ram counters (Macedonians only have cavalry spearmen as a usable ram counter in the Town Phase, which can make it harder for them to defend against rams).

Once you get to the City Phase, you can make stronger counters. Rams are perfect as long as they aren't destroyed first by the enemy rams. An elephant wins a direct fight against a ram but it can't be garrisoned in a fortress for a surprise ungarrison (and yeah, we are only talking about the melee elephant, not the elephant archer, which is as useless as other ranged units). Champion swordsmen and spearmen are very good but slow to train and expensive. A hero swordsmen can one-handedly become deadly to several rams. If you had the possibility and time to make catapults, they can destroy rams too, but only if you have more of them and if they can finish the job before the ram gets to them.

If you failed to prepare a strong ram counter, there are still several backup options. Spearmen are somewhat usable but significantly worse than swordsmen. Women can destroy one or two unprotected rams quite efficiently (better than pikemen), but they die fast if there are any enemy soldiers near. Slingers are one of the few ranged units that are usable too (they deal a small amount of crush damage), but only if you have a lot of them.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Boudica

[itrelles]

if rams wouldnt be op, match will last days in some cases xD

[Sebastián Gómez]

How is it that rams counter rams? Why do rams can attack other units apart from buildings and walls? In what way does this resemble real warfare?..

Edited June 22, 2019 by Basshunter

[Boudica]

We must say that realism isn't really the top priority; playability and enjoyability are. Rams attacking units aren't any less realistic than elephants attacking buildings for example, but we have it this way so that civilizations known to use war elephants don't also need to have rams available, which would make them unfairly more versatile.

Anyway, this one thing regarding rams has been changed in borg's mod.

[borg-]

3 hours ago, Boudica said:

Anyway, this one thing regarding rams has been changed in borg's mod.

In mod(last version 1.0.5), rams cant hit units and farms. Decreased movement speed too, to look more realistic.

The problem is not in the rams. It's the lack of adequate units to fight them. In vanilla we do not have champion units, which could easily handle rams. And the few units we have are easily knocked over by ranged units.

Edited June 22, 2019 by borg-

[winnerswithoutlosers]

It has been like that for a years now. Why is it still not changed?

[sphyrth]

You should've seen the time when Rams were no match against a bunch of women since they were Sword-type units.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Fixed for A24. There isnt a worry with this, you can take down with spearman, swordman or any melee units included cavalry. To take down you will need at last 6 units per ram.

[fatherbushido]

That discussion occured sometimes. One of the best solution I found was that one:

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24734-damage-and-armour-types/&tab=comments#comment-360402

Edited April 25, 2020 by fatherbushido

[John 5]

I've not played for a while but Rams were the biggest gameplay annoyance for me. They broke emersion for me by being illogically hard to kill by infanty/troops that got along side.

I presumed they would be being pushed around by men inside. So if undefended and enemy infantry get alongside, the Ram crew would be very vunlnerable and slaughtered. It seemed wrong when a lot of soldiers couldn't stop a single undefended Ram quickly. It's not a sealed tank.

I'd suggest it should be quite weak against infantry, more so than cavalry, as the weakness relates to the idea that people on foot could quickly get inside, or stab inside, and wipe out the crew.

This weakness could be relative to if the Ram is Moving/Ramming. So if it's stopped, the crew can be 'defending themselves' and increase its defence much higher but if it's Moving/Ramming then they are very vulnerable to infantry (unless extra infantry inside). This would need infantry to be able to keep up with the ram.

[Boudica]

On 5/2/2020 at 12:26 AM, John 5 said:

I've not played for a while but Rams were the biggest gameplay annoyance for me. They broke emersion for me by being illogically hard to kill by infanty/troops that got along side.

If the rams were much easier to destroy, as they used to be, the game would reward an expansive and defensive strategy too much. Consider that rams are one of the pricier unit types. Still, just like 10 swordsmen destroy a ram in seconds. How does that seem too much?

2 hours ago, hitlers son1 said:

of courtse they are heavily OP. The whole game is unbalanced as @#$%.

All artiullery is crazy op, like this game was made by a illogical 5 years old who has still no sense to reality. 
The rams are 10x as strong as they should be, just like the other artillery stuff. 
And slingers, peltasts, elite archers are also borderline brokenly OP.
U just win by making 200 slingers, the army is invincible. 

That's quite a lot of unit types that you call OP. Have you realized that if everything is OP, nothing is?

Your list still is far from complete though. What if I told you that your "invincible" 200 slinger army could be wiped out by a significantly smaller balanced Spartan army? Or let's take half the amount of roman champion cavalry. I tested this and I could decimate your "invincible army" while only losing five units, no micro involved. Actually, I even made the slingers start at an advanced rank.

There are currently only a few unit types that needed balancing, and they have been already fixed for the next alpha. No need to be a Hitler about it.

[Dakara]

 

The rams are balance but for me they should not attack units (no logic and 1 ram can kill a lot of archers) and maybe move less fast 

and please add a little possibility to attack building before age 3, look like 2 men with a big tree, with little dammage to building, not a lot of dammage but they are killable by ranged unit, formed at barack at AGE 2 (100 food 100 wood 100 metal) maybe for 2 or 3 civ or all ?

What you think about it ?

 

 

[Nescio]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2684

[Dakara]

1 minute ago, Nescio said:

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2684

reduce dammage is not good choose no? Because a player build 8 rams deserve destroy building (8*3 population = -24 mens for fight) 

sometime 2 rams is not enought for kill castle so with less dammage it really bad.... i go slingers lol

 

just ram can't click on unit and it ok  ? we can talk about cata can kill a lot of unit easy ? and the ALT option..?

 

[Heródoto]

Quote

On 11/27/2019 at 1:26 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

Fixed for A24. There isnt a worry with this, you can take down with spearman, swordman or any melee units included cavalry. To take down you will need at last 6 units per ram.

 

Rams are not OP,  that nerf is not necessary, you dont need to avoid destroying building. Currently there are many ways to counter them, but still are the best siege machines. Almost every pro player pick them to destroy enemy buildings. The problem is that rams also do a lot of damage to the infantry units(that doesn't make much sense), which I think is the real problem. They should fix that or improve the catapults making them arm or disarm faster or even turning 360 degrees when they're armed. The damage caused by a rock coming from the sky is greater than that of a thrunk hitting.

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 minutes ago, Heródoto said:

Rams are not OP,  that nerf is not necessary, you dont need to avoid destroying building. Currently there are many ways to counter them, but still are the best siege machines. Almost every pro player pick them to destroy enemy buildings. The problem is that rams also do a lot of damage to the infantry units(that doesn't make much sense), which I think is the real problem. They should fix that or improve the catapults making them arm or disarm faster or even turning 360 degrees when they're armed. The damage caused by a rock coming from the sky is greater than that of a thrunk hitting.

They are fixed in A24.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2782

Edited June 13, 2020 by Lion.Kanzen