Champions vs Unique Units

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Although champions have high combat utility and a lack of resource gathering and construction ability to differentiate them from citizen-soldiers, they feel boring since they are basically just the unit design of old school rts and nothing more.  I'm not saying that those characteristics are bad; they just are stale without anything else at play.  If we compare them to the unique units of Age of Empires II, there is a stark contrast.  Every unique unit in that game has a nuanced function even if they are heavily based on a preexisting unit.  

The argument I mainly wish to make is that 0 A.D. and affiliated mods should take a similar approach in the available champions.  As they currently are, players only take them in my opinion because they are typically the most efficient unit in terms of combat and nothing more.  I'm not saying that there aren't some that follow this line of reasoning; the Iberian champion cavalry are a good example of a cool design.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Although champions have high combat utility and a lack of resource gathering and construction ability to differentiate them from citizen-soldiers, they feel boring since they are basically just the unit design of old school rts and nothing more.  I'm not saying that those characteristics are bad; they just are stale without anything else at play.  If we compare them to the unique units of Age of Empires II, there is a stark contrast.  Every unique unit in that game has a nuanced function even if they are heavily based on a preexisting unit.  

The argument I mainly wish to make is that 0 A.D. and affiliated mods should take a similar approach in the available champions.  As they currently are, players only take them in my opinion because they are typically the most efficient unit in terms of combat and nothing more.  I'm not saying that there aren't some that follow this line of reasoning; the Iberian champion cavalry are a good example of a cool design.

Originally, Champions were supposed to have special abilities, like weapon switching and stuff like that. In DE, not sure about core game, Spartiates have a 10% attack bonus vs. non-Greek units. Also, 2 Spartiates can be upgraded to Olympian Champion status, costing Glory and Metal. Mauryan Maiden Archers can switch between arrows, fire arrows (both cost a small amount of wood), and sword (a small amount of metal). 

Edited May 18, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

They will have multiple attacks. I dont know how yet but they will

[fatherbushido]

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

They will have multiple attacks. I dont know how yet but they will

 

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

In DE, not sure about core game,

[...]

Mauryan Maiden Archers can switch between arrows, fire arrows, and sword.  

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

The mentioned aspects are good, but I think that we could definitely think more out-of-the-box.  For instance immortals were known to be constantly at the number of ten thousand because the empire always reinforced them to that number.  I think that it would be neat to have an ability to promote an ordinary citizen soldier or archer to being an immortal at a cost based on the experience of that unit.  It likewise would be cool if Spartiates were available in the village or even the town phase to open up new offensive and defensive purposes for the unit; after all it's weird to have the male citizens only present at the late phase of the game.  

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

8 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

The mentioned aspects are good, but I think that we could definitely think more out-of-the-box.  For instance immortals were known to be constantly at the number of ten thousand because the empire always reinforced them to that number.  I think that it would be neat to have an ability to promote an ordinary citizen soldier or archer to being an immortal at a cost based on the experience of that unit.  It likewise would be cool if Spartiates were available in the village or even the town phase to open up new offensive and defensive purposes for the unit; after all it's weird to have the male citizens only present at the late phase of the game.  

 

If we had battalions, the Immortals, aka Anusiya, battalion could have a feature where they have soldiers get replaced for free, even during combat, at some specified rate (other battalions have to be idle and within range of a barracks to receive replacements). Along with a weapon switching ability (from spear to bow). Weapon switching would be a lot easier to manage if you only have 30 battalions instead of 300 individual soldiers. Persian Archer battalions could have the Shield Wall formation where they setup rows of spara shields for extra defense. 

But regarding Spartiates, in DE the Spartan player starts with 1 Spartiate as their special starting unit. Then you can train more in Town Phase (but limited), and then an unlimited number later. They're super strong when fully upgraded. If we had battalions I'd change this a little bit. Maybe give them an Ephor ("Magistrate") special starting unit or something, then allow them to train 1 battalion of Spartiates in Town Phase, 5 in City Phase, and 10 in Empire phase. They'd have the Phalanx/Locked Shields formation. Individual soldiers within the battalion would switch to sword if attacked from behind (pike battalions would act similarly).

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

If we had battalions, the Immortals, aka Anusiya, battalion could have a feature where they have soldiers get replaced for free, even during combat, at some specified rate (other battalions have to be idle and within range of a barracks to receive replacements). Along with a weapon switching ability (from spear to bow). Weapon switching would be a lot easier to manage if you only have 30 battalions instead of 300 individual soldiers. Persian Archer battalions could have the Shield Wall formation where they setup rows of spara shields for extra defense. 

But regarding Spartiates, in DE the Spartan player starts with 1 Spartiate as their special starting unit. Then you can train more in Town Phase (but limited), and then an unlimited number later. They're super strong when fully upgraded. If we had battalions I'd change this a little bit. Maybe give them an Ephor ("Magistrate") special starting unit or something, then allow them to train 1 battalion of Spartiates in Town Phase, 5 in City Phase, and 10 in Empire phase. They'd have the Phalanx/Locked Shields formation. Individual soldiers within the battalion would switch to sword if attacked from behind (pike battalions would act similarly).

 

question? how will be work the bonus of combat in battalions vs without formations or battlalion  grouping ?

[av93]

@wraitii worked on a patch for abilities. But now is working in pathfinding and performance, so don't bother him! Thx btw

[Lion.Kanzen]

12 minutes ago, av93 said:

@wraitii worked on a patch for abilities. But now is working in pathfinding and performance, so don't bother him! Thx btw

wrong topic, lol.

[av93]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

wrong topic, lol.

Abilities are relevant to make unique units instead of regular units with just better stats (champions)

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D281

"would include self-destruct, damage around yourself, all the current cheats, transforming entities into other entities, activating spells, locking/unlocking gates, choosing seeds for farms, mounting/dismounting"

Weapon switch is one of the example in the given patch.

[wraitii]

I think special attacks should rather be handled by allowing multiple attacks.

Abilities I'll get back to someday I guess. I've had new ideas.

[av93]

17 hours ago, wraitii said:

I think special attacks should rather be handled by allowing multiple attacks.

Abilities I'll get back to someday I guess. I've had new ideas.

Now this is offtopic, how it's going with pathfinding upgrade? D13 it's near?

I don't know nothing about design and programming, but for me it makes sense that:

Switching weapon (or others stats) - ability

Active and passive special attack - ability

Multiple attacks - turret component thing? (Tank) / proper multiple attack component

 

[Deicide4u]

I was thinking of starting a new topic, but I'll just necro this one, instead. I hope you'll forgive me. 

I think we should take another view. In AoE games, there are concepts of gold and "trash" units. Gold units require gold, a valuable resource, and are usually more powerful and/or unique than units that cost only food and wood.

On the other hand, trash units don't require gold, but are highly focused on countering specific classes of units. They aren't general purpose units and are usually weaker than units that cost gold.

Spearmen line - good only against cavalry. 

Skirmisher line - good only against archers and cavalry archers. 

Light cavalry line - good only against archers, Monks and undefended siege weapons. 

In a way, CS are our version of trash units, without the elaborate counter system. Champions are our version of "gold" units. They cost a lot of Metal, they are stronger and more valuable than "trash" CS.

[Emacz]

On 18/05/2019 at 11:16 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Although champions have high combat utility and a lack of resource gathering and construction ability to differentiate them from citizen-soldiers, they feel boring since they are basically just the unit design of old school rts and nothing more.  I'm not saying that those characteristics are bad; they just are stale without anything else at play.  If we compare them to the unique units of Age of Empires II, there is a stark contrast.  Every unique unit in that game has a nuanced function even if they are heavily based on a preexisting unit.  

The argument I mainly wish to make is that 0 A.D. and affiliated mods should take a similar approach in the available champions.  As they currently are, players only take them in my opinion because they are typically the most efficient unit in terms of combat and nothing more.  I'm not saying that there aren't some that follow this line of reasoning; the Iberian champion cavalry are a good example of a cool design.

Historical has A LOT more units that switch back and fourth. Some champs, some specialized merc   
I like to think we have a lot of good ideas, more people should check it out, even if you don't like everything may give ideas for base game in future

Edited July 8 by Emacz

[Classic-Burger]

On 07/07/2025 at 7:41 PM, Emacz said:

Historical has A LOT more units that switch back and fourth. Some champs, some specialized merc   
I like to think we have a lot of good ideas, more people should check it out, even if you don't like everything may give ideas for base game in future

I'm watching you...you're stealing these ideas...

You can say that nobody implemented them.

Do it implement it.

[Emacz]

10 hours ago, Classic-Burger said:

I'm watching you...you're stealing these ideas...

You can say that nobody implemented them.

Do it implement it.

stealing!?!

We borrow some, but we came up with others first and base game incorporates them Spartas syssiton giving population bonus came from historical as well as garrison rams adding speed!
We are implementing them as we do more and more research to make sure they fit historically

[Classic-Burger]

On 09/07/2025 at 6:32 AM, Emacz said:

stealing!?!

We borrow some, but we came up with others first and base game incorporates them Spartas syssiton giving population bonus came from historical as well as garrison rams adding speed!
We are implementing them as we do more and more research to make sure they fit historically

I was talking about to mod. They're good ideas and no one takes advantage of them.

Yes, but you should differentiate the champions.

Edited July 10 by Classic-Burger

[Emacz]

Most champions, even if they dont have an "upgrade" option where they can swtich back and fourth between weapon types have some uniqueness to them.  Not all yet though.  Really depends on the civ and if their champion unit was a real important part of their army composition of its its just another unit but base game made a champion version so they weren't left out