Specific Name Review: Units

[GunChleoc]

"long" means "ship" in modern Gaelic, it doesn't mean "long" at all. https://www.faclair.com/ViewDictionaryEntry.aspx?ID=A858113212698B01A9F8DEBFFB9A809A

I expect it's the same for Gaulish.

[Nescio]

On 2/17/2020 at 10:29 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But a dictionary is no attestation

Dictionaries typically tend to list only attested words (etymological dictionaries in comparitive linguistics are different) and some also give a reference for obscure terms.

An example: on page 1437, LSJ gives:

πολυβόλος, ον, throwing many missiles, καταπάλτης Ph.Bel.73.34.

After some searching I found a digitized version of the text edition (in public domain, copyright has expired): https://archive.org/details/philonsbelopoiik00philuoft/mode/2up

The relevant page and line is:

Spoiler

Therefore the ptol_siege_polybolos_packed.xml file should have <SpecificName>Polybolos Katapaltēs</SpecificName>.

As an added bonus (serendipity!), I stumbled on a 2009 article discussing the machine (@Alexandermb): https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55030687.pdf

[Alexandermb]

13 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Therefore the ptol_siege_polybolos_packed.xml file should have <SpecificName>Polybolos Katapaltēs</SpecificName>.

As an added bonus (serendipity!), I stumbled on a 2009 article discussing the machine (@Alexandermb): https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55030687.pdf

@Stan`

[Stan`]

?

[Genava55]

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

Thanks, I appreciate it!

Your welcome. I will remove the brackets by editing my message.

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

Also, for the generic name, it doesn't matter what's currently displayed in game, it matters what is the best English equivalent, so feel free to suggest other strings.

Ok thanks for the info. One question, about the Catafalque, do you want a name for the thing in Gaulish?

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

Also, specific names for an infantry swordsman and archer would be nice to have, in case they'll be added to the Gaul roster.

I will do something similar for future proposals, no problemo.

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

Also, do the Britons use Gaulish because the Brythonic language too obscure?

Because the differences are mostly imperceptible during this period. Especially by using only the nominative case.

10 hours ago, Nescio said:

Vowel length does not matter?

In these words no, it doesn't seem to have indication for longer vowel length. When it is the case, it is generally noted by the linguists.

10 hours ago, Nescio said:

In many languages “long ship” means a warship.

My bad, by "longboat" I wanted to designate something that looks like a "log canoe". Like the bronze age models found.

 Actually this is not really the literal meaning, Longos probably meant simply ship in this context. My interpretation for this root is to designate these kinds of boat.

9 hours ago, GunChleoc said:

"long" means "ship" in modern Gaelic, it doesn't mean "long" at all.

It was not the resemblance that made me said this.

I simply wanted to designate these kinds of boat. Although the case of the word Longo- is quite complex and could also involved different meaning associated to the topography.

[Nescio]

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

One question, about the Catafalque, do you want a name for the thing in Gaulish?

It wouldn't hurt to have one, if possible.

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Because the differences are mostly imperceptible during this period. Especially by using only the nominative case.

Good to know, thanks.

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

In these words no, it doesn't seem to have indication for longer vowel length. When it is the case, it is generally noted by the linguists.

In Latin texts vowel length isn't indicated (for native speakers it's clear which are long and which are short); however, vowel length does matter, which is why some dictionaries and grammars indicate it; e.g. rosă is a nominative, rosā an ablative.

So if whatever sources you're using note it, it wouldn't hurt to display long vowels in 0 A.D. specific names as well.

4 hours ago, Genava55 said:

My bad, by "longboat" I wanted to designate something that looks like a "log canoe". Like the bronze age models found.

 Actually this is not really the literal meaning, Longos probably meant simply ship in this context. My interpretation for this root is to designate these kinds of boat.

It was not the resemblance that made me said this.

I simply wanted to designate these kinds of boat. Although the case of the word Longo- is quite complex and could also involved different meaning associated to the topography.

I was just checking (and also curious). If the word can indeed mean canoe, it's fine.

 

PS Feel free to edit https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/SpecificNames#Gaulish

[Nescio]

On 6/27/2019 at 11:55 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

athen_infantry_marine_archer_b.xml, Toxotēs Krēs, Cretan Mercenary Archer  **(Basic)

On 6/27/2019 at 11:55 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

mace_infantry_archer_b.xml, Toxotēs Krēs, Cretan Mercenary Archer  **(Basic)

On 6/27/2019 at 11:55 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

ptol_infantry_archer_b.xml, Toxotēs Krēs, Cretan Mercenary Archer  **(Basic)

  Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I suspect this Greek specific name might be a translation of the Engish. Recently I've been reading Polybius a lot, especially book V, and noticed he uses the word τοξόται “archers” only twice (Plb 5.53.9 “all light troops” and 5.79.6 “Agrianians and Persians”), whereas Κρῆτες (5.3.2, 5.7.11, 5.14.1, 5.14.4, 5.36.4, 5.53.3, 5.65.7, 5.79.10, 5.82.4, 5.82.10) and Νεόκρητες (5.3.1, 5.65.7, 5.79.10) simply appear as such, without qualifiers. Apparently it was clear that Cretans were always mercenary archers. Therefore I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to use simply Κρῆς Krēs as the specific name.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I just want the option to turn the bloody specific names off.

 

But about the Cretan Archers specifically, I think I'd want the name to be as descriptive as reasonable. But that's as far as my opinion goes in this case.

[Stan`]

7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I just want the option to turn the bloody specific names off.

I guess you could apply https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2126 by @Freagarach

[infyquest]

3 hours ago, Stan` said:

I guess you could apply https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2126 by @Freagarach

I think it would be best to change the option name to "showgenericnames" from "howToShowNames" in the above patch

[Stan`]

1 minute ago, infyquest said:

I think it would be best to change the option name to "showgenericnames" from "howToShowNames" in the above patch

Well it would be if it was a boolean, wouldn't it?

[infyquest]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

Well it would be if it was a boolean, wouldn't it?

I believe so, then may be it should be genericorspecificnames or generic_specific_names in the similar lines.

It seems my naming sense is bad.

[Nescio]

11 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I just want the option to turn the bloody specific names off.

Given that Delenda Est seems to have a copy of practically every simulation template, you could easily purge them (delete all <SpecificName> lines).

Or perhaps even better, reassign them, keeping the <GenericName> for the generic `template_*` files and the <SpecificName> for the specific `structures/{civ}_*` and `units/{civ}_*` files; e.g.:

tempate_unit_infantry_spearman.xml:

    <GenericName>Infantry Spearman</GenericName>

units/athen_infantry_spearman_b.xml:

    <SpecificName>Athenian Hoplite</SpecificName>

which will show up in game as “Athenian Hoplite (Infantry Spearman)”.

11 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

But about the Cretan Archers specifically, I think I'd want the name to be as descriptive as reasonable. But that's as far as my opinion goes in this case.

To be clear, the suggestion is for the <SpecificName>; the <GenericName> can stay unchanged; it would show up in game as “Krēs (Cretan Mercenary Archer)”.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 5/18/2020 at 6:23 AM, Nescio said:

Given that Delenda Est seems to have a copy of practically every simulation template, you could easily purge them (delete all <SpecificName> lines).

Or perhaps even better, reassign them, keeping the <GenericName> for the generic `template_*` files and the <SpecificName> for the specific `structures/{civ}_*` and `units/{civ}_*` files; e.g.:

tempate_unit_infantry_spearman.xml:

    <GenericName>Infantry Spearman</GenericName>

units/athen_infantry_spearman_b.xml:

    <SpecificName>Athenian Hoplite</SpecificName>

which will show up in game as “Athenian Hoplite (Infantry Spearman)”.

Thank you for this suggestion. I think I will adopt this scheme for DE.

Edited May 19, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone