Discussion of the Inclusion of mod civilization in A24

[Stan`]

21 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

The only thing this would require from the team is to stop saying "we're not adding new civs" like it's the official mantra. I think a lot of sinophiles for example have long abandoned Wildfiregames because of this. 

I can stop saying it. And watch people trying to do stuff in vain and lose hope and motivation, like I nearly lost mine last year of ever getting inside the team one day because I wasn't good enough. I don't want to give hope or say I will do something without being able to commit to it. And to commit it. So I could pledge to merge Terra_Magna for A24. But If I don't or I fail to fix it, all I will have is failure, and broken game, or failure and nothing that has been done.

The Kushites were made an exception, for one big reason. The research behind them. Not saying that mods don't have proper backup. I would be stabbing Ayakashi, Wolflance if I said that for Rise of the East. No. But you inspired people with your research, Lordgood started making new models, and everyone started to get hyped again. But I can't promise anyone that because he puts his heart, his soul and his blood inside a civ, that it will be included. I just can't.
Saying we won't include any Civ is a good way to make people moderate their expectations. Look at it from a manpower perspective. In the last 6 years we had at most 3 artists active in the team. So three people who could take decisions, and get them done, who like every one of us had lives and other things to do. They couldn't keep up with it and nobody has the right to force them to. We recruited new artists now, so it might be better, but I can't promise anything.

So here is what I could say: Do your research, make an awesome thread (Keep it organized... please) that make people wonder about a whole civilization nobody's really heard off, gather interest, show us that you are dead serious about it, and we will see if we can make your dream come true. Does that sound more realistic ? I can't really say.

But I believe there is something far more important. Stop thinking that mods are any less valuable than the game, that's simply NOT true. Remember, we are ALL modders. Some of us have a badge, some do not but at the end of day we are all here for only one goal, to make the game better, and more to our liking. If you fear you can't do this alone, make a modding group. The council of modders is still there, you are stronger united.

It's fine if the public mod is less popular than Delenda Est or any other mod, because in the end, they play the same game they play 0AD. and they have fun, and that's all that really matters.

[Sundiata]

@stanislas69 Thank you for wording such a nice response. As with Prodigal Son's response, I really don't have much to argue with what you said. I definitely understand the need to moderate expectations, and vocalizing my overly ambitious wishes for 0AD definitely flies in the face of that approach. I've often said it, I'm a dreamer, and I know it. I just think that some of the more visual developments like new civs are a good way to generate some natural hype, excitement, inspiration, etc. Look at the popularity of elexis' Jebel Barkal map, for example. He could have probably done it with any civ, but Kush provided some good inspiration for him. Having the seasonal options for maps like Fields of Meroë and some other map making developments made during the last alpha were at least in part thanks to the development of the Kushites and their need for new maps. I can see the development put a huge strain on some people, yourself included, and I can't thank you enough for your sacrifices, but people also grew/evolved/developed as a result, myself included. So it's win and loose, but in the end, it all goes towards a better, more polished game. The question is how long are people prepared to wait. I myself would love to think I'd still be checking the latest discussions in the Wildfire Games forums as an old man, and play the game with my grandkids  Hopefully we'll have the Chinese in by then. If not, at least alpha 24   

You're absolutely right about mods. I just didn't grow up using mods for games myself, and most people I know today don't either. Only the "real gamers", whatever that may mean, use mods, and this can be seen from the difference in download numbers (100.000+ for vanilla each alpha vs, few thousand for the most popular mods). I know it's not an excuse or anything, and people should be stimulated to download mods and experiment as much as possible. It's just a slow process to get people to be comfortable with it, and quality content like the Han, don't really need to be mods in my opinion. I'm more excited about total conversion mods, or mods depicting different timeframes. But you're right, mods can be just the same quality or even better than vanilla.

[Lion.Kanzen]

16 hours ago, dmzerocold said:

Maya and Zapotec i think should have , no ? other 2 may require more time 

What kind of information / reference you are looking for ?

Mesoamerican is the correct term for Mayans, Zapotecs, Olmecs. etc etc- Soth America is from Colombia to Argentina and Chile. in the case of cultures from east South America they are Andeneans.

Spoiler

for make a civilization or faction in 0 AD means have 3 heroes, 1 Wonder, some variety of units, specific names, in other words; a design document for them.

I take Carthaginians civ document we haven't a empty design(civ) document yet.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Carthaginians

[wackyserious]

I stand with the same POV as Stan. What we really lack is the manpower needed for the maintenance of adding more factions the game and merging it with the dev priority hierarchy. I am not against this, I am very supportive of custom projects as a part of our modding community and would gladly participate in it, once it has been green-lit. What I am really concerned into is the feasibility of adding it under present circumstances.

The inclusion of mod.io is a big step towards this, IMO.  Mod projects are now directly provided to the players. If popular demand would push this initiative towards the game then I would be overjoyed about it.

Having Terra Magna as an umbrella project for civs that parallel the game timeline is also good. Everything was consolidated in it and the workload during release was reduced.

[wackyserious]

3 hours ago, Sundiata said:

I myself would love to think I'd still be checking the latest discussions in the Wildfire Games forums as an old man, and play the game with my grandkids

I also envision this to myself. Thank you very much @Sundiata Your thoughts and words are truly inspirational. It is nice to have you around, here in the community.

[Lion.Kanzen]

28 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

I stand with the same POV as Stan. What we really lack is the manpower needed for the maintenance of adding more factions the game and merging it with the dev priority hierarchy. I am not against this, I am very supportive of custom projects as a part of our modding community and would gladly participate in it, once it has been green-lit. What I am really concerned into is the feasibility of adding it under present circumstances.

The inclusion of mod.io is a big step towards this, IMO.  Mod projects are now directly provided to the players. If popular demand would push this initiative towards the game then I would be overjoyed about it.

Having Terra Magna as an umbrella project for civs that parallel the game timeline is also good. Everything was consolidated in it and the workload during release was reduced.

Is more easy if work together similar to a Factory, for example Sundiata makes the base to the icons outlines for me is easy take and give life with Vectorial and Photo editing program.

thats how we make Xiongnu and Kushites emblems. I have previous experience from New Kingdom Egypt I use same technique. some times i asked renders by Alexander our 3D artist

I can take photos to make textures or references. i can help Wacky or give some review.

Sundiata can research more organized than me and make some conceptual art.(units)

Stanislas is 3D but he can be coder too so he can make good maintenance for us. Asterix same he can organized our issues even can take some design documents. make to make a civ is very or highly recommended make a design document.

The secret of art department was that. many of us tried to keep our minds open to learn many things.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I sympathize with the "manpower" aspect, but civs like the Han, Zaps, and Xions are already largely complete.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The heroes are missing I think. (Zap and Xion)

Edited October 16, 2018 by Lion.Kanzen

[GunChleoc]

14 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

And watch people trying to do stuff in vain and lose hope and motivation, like I nearly lost mine last year of ever getting inside the team one day because I wasn't good enough.

You were not quite good enough yet when you first started posting, but your talent was very obvious to me, and your diligence had you improving very fast! I guess we should have told you that more often.

[balduin]

On 10/15/2018 at 1:49 PM, Sundiata said:

I just didn't grow up using mods for games myself, and most people I know today don't either.

I did not realize that people have such an experience. I did grew up wanting to add or remove things to a game and I played a lot of mods. However, I am not what @Sundiata categorizes as "real gamer". I actually find the term "real gamer" divisive. I do not think it is necessary to split people into groups just because one group experienced mods previously to playing 0 A.D. In additions, having mods is just a natural evolution for an open source game. There is no technical or legal limitation, which prevents people from modifying the game. Quite the opposite, 0 A. D. encourages you to contribute.

Furthermore, people mentioned that most civilizations in the Terra Magna mod are in a good spot to be included into the main game especially the Han Chinese. As much as I like playing the Han Chinese, they were and still are not in a spot to be included into the main game. For example, the Han Chinese did not have heroes or champion units, when I first started playing them. Today they have heroes and champion units. The Han are very different from other civilizations in 0 A. D. I would like to see the differences further worked out, without becoming a "super" civilization. I think it will take more time to balance them further against other civilizations. The Zapotecs and Xiongnu need more research. I mean I am impressed with the rapid development of both they are very playable today. Kudos for the great work, I mean both civilizations were added in roughly a year. However, they are not complete.

Do I want to see the Han Chinese long term in the game. Yes, I would love to see them included in the game at some point. On the other hand, enabling them today is already easy. I mean go to the mod section, download them, activate the mod and start playing.

Furthermore, I think in the long run there should be the possibility for mods to use only the engine and exclude the 0 A.D. default mod entirely. This would be helpful for mods such as Millennium A.D., which is not really a mod. In the long run it should be it's own game with it's own mods, but use the same Pyrogenesis game engine as 0 A.D.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by balduin

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 10/15/2018 at 12:49 PM, Sundiata said:

You're absolutely right about mods. I just didn't grow up using mods for games myself, and most people I know today don't either.

No if you can call them dlc at some point or expansions.

[Sundiata]

58 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

No if you can call them dlc at some point or expansions.

 

dlc's don't make any sense for a free game though. They're basically a profit maximization tool, which serves no purpose for a free to play open source game created by unpaid volunteers. We actually have a big advantage in this regard over the corporate route which seeks to please investors first and foremost. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

 

dlc's don't make any sense for a free game though. They're basically a profit maximization tool, which serves no purpose for a free to play open source game created by unpaid volunteers. We actually have a big advantage in this regard over the corporate route which seeks to please investors first and foremost. 

Nice played.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Is a cosmetic name to extra content.  you know some  factions are so far away...