celtic reference

[Nescio]

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Taverns are indeed a very particular thing in the Gallic society and they appeared mostly around the 1st century BC with the Roman influence growing through trading. Taverns are often associated with amphorae storage, mostly filled with wine. There was one in the oppidum of Corent. Although the material found there is associated with strong Mediterranean influence and it could be owned by merchants, even Roman merchants.

The tavern made by Stan is based on the shape of the tavern found in Lattara dated to the early Roman occupation of Gallia Narbonnensis. Lattara itself is not a typical "La Tène" oppidum, the town has been strongly influenced by Etruscans and Greeks. Although, if he was inspired by the shape of the building, he made a much more Gallic depiction of the tavern.

Personally I have no issue with his depiction. The only thing is that in the Gallic society, there is no use of a tavern from a traditional perspective. There is a strong custom in Celtic societies for hospitality, a bit like Xenia in ancient Greece. Most of the respectable travelers would have been welcomed in the houses of Gallic freemen and aristocrats. Probably that the taverns arise with the increasing trade and also probably for the establishment of merchant guilds or networks across Gallic and Roman societies.

To sum up, taverns existed in Gaul, though probably as a consequence of Roman influence? That would make sense. The word itself has a Latin root:

M. de Vaan Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages (Leiden 2008):

Spoiler

P. G. W. Glare (ed.) Oxford Latin Dictionary (second edition: Oxford 2012, 2016):

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

So I don't see which use it could have excepted in the case of campaign scenarios. It could be recycled to another thing, this is another option. There are Gallic houses with courtyards and actually the depiction made by Stan falls better in this category (the heads at the entrance, the weapons, it suggests a warlike aristocratic house). I think the building can still be useful for people wanting to portray a Gallic oppidum.

So do you think it's better to keep the tavern entity for maps, but exclude them from the default build list, and move the fanatics e.g. to the temple?

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Either the act to put themselves naked is a religious vow to grant them the Gods favor in battle or it is a way to prove their bravery in the eyes of their peers.

But naked fanatics did exist in Gaul, and had religious associations? The image I have is biased by Norse berserkers of a millennium later.

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The core of the problem is that from a historical perspective there are no barracks and no archery ranges in the Gallic society.

The same is largely true for Hellenistic Roman and Greek societies.

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

To sum up, taverns existed in Gaul, though probably as a consequence of Roman influence? That would make sense. The word itself has a Latin root:

Exactly.

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

So do you think it's better to keep the tavern entity for maps, but exclude them from the default build list, and move the fanatics e.g. to the temple?

This is the first proposal I made in the past.

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

But naked fanatics did exist in Gaul, and had religious associations? The image I have is biased by Norse berserkers of a millennium later.

We don't know. There are two clear accounts of naked warriors in classical literature, the famous Gaesatae of Telamon and some Celts in the Balkans. In both accounts, no religious motive is said by the authors. From a mythological perspective, the Irish literature doesn't specify anything of religious about it. Although, it is a common thing in Indo-European comparative mythology (the Berserkir for example), it doesn't seem to have the same meaning for the Celts. There are some accounts of nakedness concerning mythical Welsh champions fighting in front of their host, challenging the enemies and enemies' champions.

In my perspective, everything has a religious meaning in Celtic ethos but I don't think it was necessary a complex ritual involving a priest. I see it more like a warrior rite with a vow to the Gods, performed on the battlefield. Anyway, recruiting them in the temple is fine. I don't have a conclusive answer, this is a topic lacking evidences for their motives.

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

The same is largely true for Hellenistic Roman and Greek societies.

For Greeks and Romans of the Republic era, probably not indeed.

But for Hellenistic dynasties there isn't any reference of barracks? I am kindly asking, I have no idea if this is the case.

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Genava55

[Ultimate Aurelian]

56 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

 Although, it is a common thing in Indo-European comparative mythology (the Berserkir for example).

Do you think it could be related to heroic nudity in archaic Greece ?

I have considered that idea a couple times.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Do you think it could be related to heroic nudity in archaic Greece ?

I have considered that idea a couple times.

Very probably yes. It is the case with Mycenaean Greece as well. I think the earliest known IE naked heroized warrior are the Yamnaya statues, which are a continuing tradition in the following Bell Beaker complex of cultures in Western Europe.

http://data.over-blog-kiwi.com/0/57/66/91/20140218/ob_60cb16_an-attempt-at-reconstruction-of-the-earliest-indo.pdf

 

[Nescio]

13 hours ago, Genava55 said:

For Greeks and Romans of the Republic era, probably not indeed.

But for Hellenistic dynasties there isn't any reference of barracks? I am kindly asking, I have no idea if this is the case.

Temporary army camps, yes. Garrisons (usually mercenaries) of key cities and fortresses, yes. Military land grants and associated settlements (Latin colonia, Greek κρηρουχία klērouchia, from κλῆρος klēros ‘allotment, piece of land’) in return for military service in case of war, yes. Basically the system already existed under the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian empires and was continued by the Achaemenids and Seleucids; I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for Egypt. (It may have been even older, going back to the Amarna period and possibly even earlier in the Bronze Age, though I'm guessing here, I'm not an Assyriologist or Hittitologist.)

However, barracks, no, not that I know of. Of course, I certainly don't know everything, so if someone knows something I don't, please prove me wrong. Barracks imply the existence of permanent standing armies, something which only gradually emerged during the 1st C BC (Romans); the first barracks I know of are those of the praetorian guard under Augustus and subsequent emperors.

[Lion.Kanzen]

nevermind..

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Lion.Kanzen

[Genava55]

https://www.les-ambiani.com/le-pacte-gaulois/

Spoiler

Our objectives and motivations are diverse:

- Transmission of historical and archaeological knowledge concerning a section of our regional history by the creation of an educational support, attractive, suitable for the general public and of cinematographic quality.

- Promotion and promotion of our Hauts-de-France region through its natural and rural landscapes of the region with filming sites such as the bocage of Thiérache, the Somme valley, the forest of Saint Michel-Hirson, the marshes of the strain. The film also highlights the architectural reconstructions of the Samara Archaeological Park (La Chaussée-Tirancourt) and the Barbarian Times Museum (Marle)

 - A unifying project around which all the members of the association come together to develop and materialize their passion for history through cinema.

 - Creation of a communication and promotion product consistent with the historical period that we are presenting and which reflects the values carried by the association

This project is the result of the voluntary participation of all its stakeholders, with crowdfunding Ulule which raised 1500 euros to support the association Les Ambiani in its various costs

Synopsis

The action presented takes place in 57 BC. J. - C., on the territory of Ambiani, in Belgic Gaul. We are at the beginning of the Gallic War and certain Gallic tribes begin to meet while the armies of Caesar seem to want to settle permanently in Gaul.

A journey of initiation will plunge the son of a tribal chief into the core of Gallic culture.

We will follow a troop led by its chief, Catucaros, his son Uertragos, the scholar, Lugulcos as well as their bodyguards and servants on the way to the neighboring tribe of Viromanduens. Will they ally against Caesar? What will happen to the young Uertragos in full emancipation?

 

[fatherbushido]

@Genava55 oh awesome! are you involved in that project? I am a bit confused about the mentioned locations, is that in the 02 or in the 80?

[Genava55]

26 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:

@Genava55 oh awesome! are you involved in that project? I am a bit confused about the mentioned locations, is that in the 02 or in the 80?

Nope. I live in Switzerland and I am not an archeologist nor a reenactor. I am a genuinely interested environmental scientist that like very much ancient history and archeology. I participated a bit in a few archeological projects through laboratory analyses but that's all. I simply translated the webpage for everyone here.

This project is led by a reenactment group from the region of Amiens (therefore the reason of their name, Ambiani, the Celtic tribe of this location). They have a small re-enacted village at Pont Rémy (80) and the association is registered at Abbeville (80). But probably that for this project they filmed in different location in Picardie. They have worked with other association as well as the re-enacted village of Samara.

https://www.les-ambiani.com/

http://www.samara.fr/

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Genava55

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 6/19/2020 at 6:45 PM, Genava55 said:

Very probably yes. It is the case with Mycenaean Greece as well.

http://data.over-blog-kiwi.com/0/57/66/91/20140218/ob_60cb16_an-attempt-at-reconstruction-of-the-earliest-indo.pdf

 

It's interesting to note that the bell cuirass (Whose anatomical shape is believed to originate from heroic nudity tradition) has some similarities to some Hallstat armors:

Earliest example of that shape is in Urnfield armor:

 

[Genava55]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

It's interesting to note that the bell cuirass (Whose anatomical shape is believed to originate from heroic nudity tradition) has some similarities to some Hallstat armors:

Indeed. The influence of Mycenaean on the late Bronze Age is undoubtful and the influence of the Etruscans and Early Greeks on the early Iron Age are also very important.

An example: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S0079497X15000171

 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

6 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Indeed. The influence of Mycenaean on the late Bronze Age is undoubtful and the influence of the Etruscans and Early Greeks on the early Iron Age are also very important.

 

The shields described by Homer are similar to the ones from central Europe as well.

Ceremonial shield from the Archaic period:

]

Urnfield shield:

Descripition of Agamemnon's shield

Quote

And he took up his richly dight, valorous shield, that sheltered a man on both sides, a fair shield, and round about it were ten circles of bronze, and upon it twenty bosses of tin, [35] gleaming white, and in the midst of them was one of dark cyanus. And thereon was set as a crown the Gorgon, grim of aspect, glaring terribly, and about her were Terror and Rout.

 

[Nescio]

On naked warriors (looking up the Greek original is still somewhere on my to-do list):

Spoiler

On chariots (0 A.D.'s Briton chariot is not too bad, though there is room for improvement):

Spoiler

Taken from Barry Cunliffe The Ancient Celts : Second Edition (Oxford 2018).

[Genava55]

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

On chariots (0 A.D.'s Briton chariot is not too bad, though there is room for improvement):

There is a good relief found in Italy depicting a Celtic chariot:

 

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

On naked warriors (looking up the Greek original is still somewhere on my to-do list):

No doubt that the naked warrior is a real thing in Gallic society. However, I really disagree with Barry Cunliffe's opinion about the oneness of fighting naked. The Gaesatae are recorded only one time as fighting naked and the account at Telamon seems to suggest an exception more than a common thing for them. Their king is Viridomaros/Britomaros and is described as bearing a colorful armor at the battle of Clastidium. So I don't see the "oneness" in that. Everything suggests it was also perform as an act of individual bravado, so I would be careful to associate it to any group identity.

A larger excerpt from Diodorus Siculus (hist. 5, 29):

Quote

In their journeyings and when they go into battle the Gauls use chariots drawn by two horses, which carry the charioteer and the warrior; and when they encounter cavalry in the fighting they first hurl their javelins at the enemy and then step down from their chariots and join battle with their swords. Certain of them despise death to such a degree that they enter the perils of battle without protective armour and with no more than a girdle about their loins. They bring along to war also their free men to serve them, choosing them out from among the poor, and these attendants they use in battle as charioteers and as shield-bearers.

A small note about the interpretation of their name, Gaesatae/Gaisatoi doesn't necessary mean "spear-men", the same way hastati doesn't always designate spearmen and samurai doesn't always designate attendants. The use of a word and its etymology is not the same thing, we know that in old Irish gaiscedach can designate a warrior or a champion in general even if the root originally derives from gae, the spear.

Finally the duel of Manlius Torquatus is probably made up by several Roman authors. First of all, the Roman is described by Livy as being armed of a Spanish gladius, which is anachronic for 361 BC. The same for the long and heavy sword of the Gaul, a topos completely anachronic for 361 BC when the La Tène swords weren't that long. Livy described the Gaul as wearing colored clothes while Aulus Gellius described the Gaul naked with two swords (which is completely absurd). Dion Cassius says it was the king of the Gauls while the others do not. The oldest record comes from Cicero (and still, this is two centuries after the event) where is says:

Quote

Si voluptatis causa @#$%* Gallo apud Anienem depugnavit provocatus et ex eius spoliis sibi et torquem et cognomen induit ullam aliam ob causam, nisi quod ei talia facta digna viro videbantur, fortem non puto.

*gosh the automatic censorship is dull

If it was to win pleasure that he accepted the Gallic warrior's challenge to single combat on the banks of the Anio, and if he despoiled him and assumed his necklet and the corresponding surname for any other reason than that he thought such deeds became a man, I do not consider him brave.

So it seems the reality is unclear. There was a duel but that's all.

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

Taken from Barry Cunliffe The Ancient Celts : Second Edition (Oxford 2018).

I don't think my eyes recovered from the chapter 3 yet.

Personally I find this book not that much useful for anybody wanting to portray better the Celts because in there, Barry Cunliffe is mixing stuff from the Neolithic to the Early Middles Ages, from different cultures in addition with his own beliefs and certitudes.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Genava55

[Stan`]

How accurate would something similar to Age of Mythology ox cart for a celt merchant? We have cows now so I figure we could use them?

[Genava55]

35 minutes ago, Stan` said:

How accurate would something similar to Age of Mythology ox cart for a celt merchant? We have cows now so I figure we could use them?

Four wheeled chariot driven by cattle could be a possibility. The two attested animals in use for hard work and transport during the iron age are the horse and the ox (boeuf):

The Gallic chariots were diverse and the most renown were those adapted for horses, although this is not necessarily the kind of chariot used by the merchants:

Edited July 1, 2020 by Genava55

[Nescio]

14 hours ago, Genava55 said:

*gosh the automatic censorship is dull

Indeed it is, I've complained about this several times: c-u-m is one of the most common Latin words. Try censoring the English words ‘when’, ‘whereas’, ‘while’, and ‘with’.

14 hours ago, Genava55 said:

I don't think my eyes recovered from the chapter 3 yet.

Personally I find this book not that much useful for anybody wanting to portray better the Celts because in there, Barry Cunliffe is mixing stuff from the Neolithic to the Early Middles Ages, from different cultures in addition with his own beliefs and certitudes.

To be clear, I didn't really pay much attention to the text (too few footnotes for my taste). I skimmed some parts (e.g. chapter nine) and skipped the rest. The images are nice and sharp, though, hence my previous post.

I just a read chapter three and I fully agree people shouldn't read that. He's basically equating pre-Celtic millennia with Celts. Support for the tying the spread of Indo-European languages and peoples throughout Eurasia with the spread of horses and chariots from the steppes (Kurgan hypothesis) is well established. Tying Indo-European to the much earlier introduction of agriculture from the Near East (Anatolia hypothesis) is widely discredited.

Until the second half of the 20th C there was a tendency to equate Indo-European with fair eyes, fair hair, fair skin. Like most other racial theories, it's not supported by science. Modern (esp. mitochondrial) DNA research is increasingly showing that European peoples are the result of three separate genetic groups:

• hunter-gatherers from Europe surviving the last Ice Age, who had light eyes, dark hair, dark skin;
• farmers from the Near East during the Neolithic, who had dark eyes, dark hair, light skin;
• pastoralists from the Eurasian steppes during the Bronze Age, who had dark eyes, light hair, dark skin.

Of course, this is a broad picture, and migrations happened in countless ‘waves’ during millennia.

Nevertheless, the Neolithic farmers who lived in Western Europe (and erected Stonehenge, among other things) were neither Celtic nor Indo-European.

14 hours ago, Genava55 said:

A small note about the interpretation of their name, Gaesatae/Gaisatoi doesn't necessary mean "spear-men", the same way hastati doesn't always designate spearmen and samurai doesn't always designate attendants. The use of a word and its etymology is not the same thing, we know that in old Irish gaiscedach can designate a warrior or a champion in general even if the root originally derives from gae, the spear.

Completely true. However, note the quotation marks: hastatus (‘spear-man’) is not the same as hastatus (i.e. a spearman); the former indicates the linguistic root, the latter implies they fought with spears. Cf. Peter (‘rock’) or Stephan (‘crown’).

14 hours ago, Genava55 said:

No doubt that the naked warrior is a real thing in Gallic society. However, I really disagree with Barry Cunliffe's opinion about the oneness of fighting naked.

Does he?

One of the features of Celtic warfare which impressed itself upon the classical mind
was the fact that some warriors fought naked except for the sword belt and a gold
neck torc.

[...]

The vision of the naked Celt is a recurring theme in Graeco-Roman art, [...]

How I read this is not that fighting naked was pan-Celtic, but that it was a Greek and Roman topos.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@feneur @implodedok

 

we can remove cvm (c u m) latin word from censorship?

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Indeed it is, I've complained about this several times: c-u-m is one of the most common Latin words. Try censoring the English words ‘when’, ‘whereas’, ‘while’, and ‘with’.

 

Edit: Oops try to merge both of my last replies. Ty.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Lion.Kanzen

[feneur]

4 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

we can remove cvm (c u m) latin word from censorship?

Done.

[Nescio]

15 minutes ago, feneur said:

Done.

Great, many thanks! Censorship of ‘cum’ out of ignorance is rather annoying: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44217118

Also, a-s-s (wild donkey)?

[feneur]

18 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Great, many thanks! Censorship of ‘cum’ out of ignorance is rather annoying: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44217118

I would say it's more a matter of making things easy for oneself/doing something that works in most cases than ignorance, the places where people use latin are probably fewer than where people would deem the modern meaning of those letters/sounds to be inappropriate.

Quote

Also, a-s-s (wild donkey)?

Sure, that's pretty mild even if used as profanity I would say, so I'll remove it from the censored words.

[Stan`]

On 7/1/2020 at 11:15 PM, Genava55 said:

Four wheeled chariot driven by cattle could be a possibility. The two attested animals in use for hard work and transport during the iron age are the horse and the ox (boeuf):

The Gallic chariots were diverse and the most renown were those adapted for horses, although this is not necessarily the kind of chariot used by the merchants:

I could use the same model as the athenians, with a gaul driver, I was just wondering

[Genava55]

On 7/2/2020 at 1:15 PM, Nescio said:

Does he?

I was referring to this:

The Gaesatae (‘spear-men’) were distinguishable as a distinct group and at Telamon appear to have been a lately arrived mercenary force. Their ritual nakedness may have been a demonstration of their oneness as a fighting body. Nakedness in battle is again referred to in Galatia in 189 bc, when the Tolistobogii and Trocmi took off their clothes before battle with the Romans, exposing their podgy white bodies, enhancing the vividness of their wounds as they were cut to pieces by the Roman force.

 

 

[Genava55]

[Genava55]

Recently the topic of Celtic civ bonus has been the subject of debate: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2841

Since the Gauls have the unique feature, in comparison to the Britons, to build dense fortified farms with granary and livestock, a bonus in relation to this could be a good idea.

For example the barracks could accept the storing of resources, just an idea.