===[COMMITTED]=== Celtic Unit Helmets

[Nescio]

1 minute ago, Alexandermb said:

will have to do a patch for reduce the redundancy of helmets/celt_helmet just like hellenic and roman helmets.

helmet should have only the faction prefix, in this case celtic or "celt" like phrygian, corinthian, thracian helmets use the hellenic "hele" prefix. 

Out of curiosity, why are those prefixes necessary in this case?

[Alexandermb]

18 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Out of curiosity, why are those prefixes necessary in this case?

Not in my knowledge i just followed the old helmet prefix, maybe @Stan` would know, thought it helpets to keep the actors grouped per faction instead of mixed

ie: Monte_fortino (Gaul or Roman?); Gallic_Type_H but it is gallic or its Roman? for those who don't have the proper knowledge they may belive its a helmet for gauls.; Coolus (Gaul or Roman?) etc. hele in this case groups all kind of hellenistic faction, while celt groups all the celtic kind (britons, Gauls, Iberians).

Or at least thats my point of view. We always should do work having in mind that not all users are expert on history, including myself in that. I've learned a lot of history thanks to this forum and this project.

[Stan`]

I don't know for sure, but I would assume as I created the helmet folder (at least I created it for some mods) that helmet wasn't removed because I simply SVN moved the files with no renaming (I also didn't know the helmet names at that point)

[Genava55]

https://www.facebook.com/Maziars.workshop/

 

 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

17 hours ago, Genava55 said:

https://www.facebook.com/Maziars.workshop/

 

 

These Eastern Port Helmets are very interesting, the last two seem to be made in a unique local style and not just imports or copies of Gaulish ones.

Would be good for Germanic Lugii mercenaries; or a Bastarnae unit for Scythians and Thracians.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

7 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

These Eastern Port Helmets are very interesting, the last two seem to be made in a unique local style and not just imports or copies of Gaulish ones.

Would be good for Germanic Lugii mercenaries; or a Bastarnae unit for Scythians and Thracians.

The last one is from River Sava in Croatia*, territory under the control of the Taurisci or of the Scordisci. The other one is from Russia, it is not the first time that La Tène items are found in the North Pontic. The design of the heads is similar to the Gundestrup cauldron and it is probably an import. So it looks like Celtic but anyway we know that other cultures used those protective gears as well. The Dacians notably. The helmet of Siemiechow in Poland is also an indication that the Lugii/Vandals used this kind of helmet as well.

*https://www.researchgate.net/publication/27212568_The_late_La_Tene_bronze_helmet_from_the_Sava_at_Stara_Gradiska

Edited May 11, 2020 by Genava55

[Ultimate Aurelian]

5 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The last one is from River Sava in Croatia*, territory under the control of the Taurisci or of the Scordisci.

These tribes could also be represented as mercenaries (For Illyrians); it's interesting how ornate that helmet is compared to simpler Gaulish ones, and how it uses both iron and bronze.

On another topic, i was browsing your references for Przeworsk culture in another thread and saw this shield miniature; i guess it's possible for Lugii to use something like the Golasecca ''violin'' shield ?

Similar to:

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

These tribes could also be represented as mercenaries (For Illyrians)

I have a few ideas to include Celtic cavalrymen from the Balkans as mercenaries, based on material found in Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia. However for the moment I am waiting for the release of A24. Also I still want to upgrade the two Celtic factions to make them more interesting, more diverse and more accurate. But currently I am waiting to see how the players will react with A24 changes and I am waiting if borg and the others will continue their balancing work.

2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

it's interesting how ornate that helmet is compared to simpler Gaulish ones, and how it uses both iron and bronze.

Actually it was the case already during the 4th and 3rd century BC. With the helmet from Amfreville (bronze basis with iron, bronze, enamel and gold addition), the helmet from Canosa (iron basis with coral and bronze in addition), the helmet from Tronoën (iron basis with bronze and coral in addition) and the two helmets found in two different tombs from Monte Bibele  (both iron basis with bronze in addition). The same for one of the 10 helmets found in Tintignac, probably dated to the first half of the 2nd century BC, a helmet with a iron basis and with bronze sheets in addition.

2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

On another topic, i was browsing your references for Przeworsk culture in another thread and saw this shield miniature; i guess it's possible for Lugii to use something like the Golasecca ''violin'' shield ?

Yes. It could work for the Lugii. Although it doesn't concern this thread.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Genava55

[Genava55]

Funny I have just found that an Italian Museum reconstituted one of the Monte Bibele helmet:

 

[Orphydian]

On 9/9/2019 at 5:01 PM, Alexandermb said:

@Genava55 good enough? did this quick mesh (WIP) for the side decoration:

  Hide contents

 

 

how exaclty did this one? looks very clean

[Stan`]

7 minutes ago, Orphydian said:

how exaclty did this one? looks very clean

It's normal polygon modelling with a cylinder and extrusions

[Orphydian]

On 6/6/2020 at 6:18 PM, Stan` said:

It's normal polygon modelling with a cylinder and extrusions

Normal as in good old polygon modeling ? I would love to see the wireframe of this one to get a minimal idea of the geometry 

[Orphydian]

Could there be the celts again to spawn a very popular helmet design like the hellenistic Konos ?

[Stan`]

11 minutes ago, Orphydian said:

Normal as in good old polygon modeling ? I would love to see the wireframe of this one to get a minimal idea of the geometry 

Yep. Unfortunately Alexandermb lost the file so it's gonna be hard.

7 minutes ago, Orphydian said:

Could there be the celts again to spawn a very popular helmet design like the hellenistic Konos ?

Sorry I don't understand the question?

[Orphydian]

I wondered if the origin of the hellenistic Konos type helmets could be again traced to the celtic  designs like many other other weaponry and armoury. That would be ridiculous. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Orphydian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

46 minutes ago, Orphydian said:

Could there be the celts again to spawn a very popular helmet design like the hellenistic Konos ?

 

I do see a resemblance. Perhaps influenced by Galatian mercenaries and the 3rd century BC Gallic invasion of Greece. 

[Orphydian]

I think Ive red some studies that some late seleucid helmets worn by thorakitai and thureophoroi and even by phalangites in late hellenistic period (that I and many other considered just a usual variation of the thraco-attic) are also the result of the galatians influence:

  

Edited June 7, 2020 by Orphydian

[Ultimate Aurelian]

13 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I do see a resemblance. Perhaps influenced by Galatian mercenaries and the 3rd century BC Gallic invasion of Greece. 

That typology of Celtic helmet shows up pretty late (After Galatian invasion), perhaps the Gauls copied hellenic helmets from Massalia, Carthage, maybe Rome as well.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Orphydian said:

Could there be the celts again to spawn a very popular helmet design like the hellenistic Konos ?

This helmet found in Normandy and dated to the 1st century BC is close from its conception to the most common type known as "Alésia" (because the first was one has been found there).

It is possible there was back and forth influence between the Celts from Central Europe, the Celts from North Italy, the Celts from the Balkans and the Celts from the Pontic Steppes. Maybe with Anatolia too although it is not totally certain. The Celtic world of the 3rd, 2nd and 1st century BC is highly connected.

As an example of the complex interaction, here a Konos like helmet found in Kalnavo (late Thracian site) with plenty of Celtic items: 

[Orphydian]

did alexandermb already done some eatsern celtic helmets variants (derived from the Port type) like the ones found in Slovenia, Croatia or even in Poland ?  Its so cool to see Thracian and Illyrian influences on them.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlQjrbUx8uljhn--3BO3tu49wtDG?e=m73wVe

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlQjrbUx8uljhwS9bNdm9E063r6b?e=iGMLvE

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlQjrbUx8uljhwP10fKJ2yKOOqHn?e=fRuZ0j

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlQjrbUx8uljhwJ-pHESeRgBn20T?e=5jA8YH

Edited June 8, 2020 by Orphydian

[Orphydian]

How many Novo Mesto type helmets were found and where exactly. Ive red this article but its not very clear.

 

https://www.academia.edu/5463297/The_Power_of_3_-_Some_Observations_On_Eastern_Celtic_Helmets

Quote

Most examples of these Eastern Celtic helmets have been discovered on the Balkans on the territory of today’s Croatia and Slovenia, where such have been recorded at
Seveste in central Croatia, and in Slovenia at Stremec near Bela Cerkev, in theLjubljanica river, at the Celtic cemetery at Na Hribcu (Mihovo) where 2 such helmets
were discovered, Idrija near Nova Bača, Vinji Vrh (Šmarjeta), and in burial # 169 at
Beletov Urt -Novo Mesto

 
(Mihaljević, Dizdar 2007)

 

Besides the most popular one it seems there is at least another finding with more bland shapes. Anyone know the sites for this one and the others?
.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Orphydian

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:11 PM, Genava55 said:

It is possible there was back and forth influence between the Celts from Central Europe, the Celts from North Italy, the Celts from the Balkans and the Celts from the Pontic Steppes. Maybe with Anatolia too although it is not totally certain. The Celtic world of the 3rd, 2nd and 1st century BC is highly connected.

 

Indeed not only are there finds of Port helmets in the east, but there was also a find of a eastern style Montefortino in Gaul.

[Genava55]

Mihovo / Sava

Novo Mesto

 

Vinjega vrha pri Šmarjeti / Vinji vrh bei Šmarjeta

Ljubljanica

 

Boiko-Ponura

Tsarsky / Rostov-on-Don (Ростов на Дону)

Cugir (Romania)

Siemiechow

Idrija

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Genava55

[Genava55]

9 hours ago, Orphydian said:

did alexandermb already done some eatsern celtic helmets variants (derived from the Port type) like the ones found in Slovenia, Croatia or even in Poland ?  Its so cool to see Thracian and Illyrian influences on them.

Yup, he did one. For the moment I think it is enough. The Britons should be the next to need attention, not the Gauls.

  

On 2/4/2019 at 1:54 AM, Alexandermb said:

To continue the celtic faction Redesing - Visual Update done this helmet:

1024 texture vs 256 texture for game usage (Blender tip: Always bake the best resolution possible you can handle, because if you bake directly a 256 texture or 512 they will bake with 80% imperfections, if you can bake 2k textures and then rescale to 512 or 256 better).

  Hide contents

 

 

[Genava55]

On 8/28/2018 at 8:56 PM, Genava55 said:

Origin of the Coolus-Mannheim? Here a native Southern Gallic helmet, type Toulouse-Estarac in iron - 100/70  BC :

Other pictures of this iron helmet (with bronze front band):

Lead weight at the front is simply to balance the whole thing because it has been reused as a bucket.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Genava55