Nescio Posted April 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 13 hours ago, stanislas69 said: Revamping foundations. That's really sloooooooooooooooooooooooow. Still need to add props. They now have consistent size 1x1 is one game tile and 2x2m in Blender Thank you, I'm really looking forward to this, and it will also be useful for mods in other timeframes. How large is a game tile and how does it correspond to the footprint and obstruction size specified in the templates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 22 minutes ago, Nescio said: How large is a game tile and how does it correspond to the footprint and obstruction size specified in the templates? Hmm since Atlas is broken on your machine you might not be able to see it yourself so here is a screenshot. Okay so in blue are the actual game tiles. The small tiles are pathfinder resolution IIRC. The white tiles are the tiles we use for the game buildings as everything is tilted by a good 45 degrees. The placement isn't restricted to either of these tiles. 1x1 is one blue tile, or one white tile. (Somebody messed up the bigger foundation sizes like 8x8 which is actually 10x10) In obstruction and footprint size (as well as decals) 1x1 = 4x4 subtiles (eg. a 5x5 footprint should be 20 x 20 = 4 * 5 x 4 * 5) Any other questions ? I guess all this should be in the Art Design Document at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: Hmm since Atlas is broken on your machine you might not be able to see it yourself so here is a screenshot. Okay so in blue are the actual game tiles. The small tiles are pathfinder resolution IIRC. The white tiles are the tiles we use for the game buildings as everything is tilted by a good 45 degrees. The placement isn't restricted to either of these tiles. 1x1 is one blue tile, or one white tile. (Somebody messed up the bigger foundation sizes like 8x8 which is actually 10x10) In obstruction and footprint size (as well as decals) 1x1 = 4x4 subtiles (eg. a 5x5 footprint should be 20 x 20 = 4 * 5 x 4 * 5) Any other questions ? I guess all this should be in the Art Design Document at some point. "Grid subdiv" is also a useful terrain for figuring out sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted April 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 Thank you for your detailed reply, it's quite helpful. 14 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: In obstruction and footprint size (as well as decals) 1x1 = 4x4 subtiles (eg. a 5x5 footprint should be 20 x 20 = 4 * 5 x 4 * 5) Do you mean “will be” or “currently is”? E.g. `rome_civil_centre.xml`: Spoiler <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> <Entity parent="template_structure_civic_civil_centre"> <Footprint> <Square width="40.0" depth="40.0"/> <Height>8.0</Height> </Footprint> <Health> <SpawnEntityOnDeath>decay|rubble/rubble_rome_cc</SpawnEntityOnDeath> </Health> <Identity> <Civ>rome</Civ> <SpecificName>Forum</SpecificName> </Identity> <Obstruction> <Static width="37.0" depth="37.0"/> </Obstruction> <ProductionQueue> <Entities datatype="tokens"> units/{civ}_infantry_swordsman_b units/{civ}_infantry_javelinist_b units/{civ}_cavalry_spearman_b </Entities> </ProductionQueue> <VisualActor> <Actor>structures/romans/civic_centre.xml</Actor> <FoundationActor>structures/fndn_8x8.xml</FoundationActor> </VisualActor> </Entity> Also, two be two fndn_4x4 appear to be slightly larger than one fndn_8x8. 24 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: Any other questions ? Yes, how do footprint and obstruction size relate? Often the footprint appear to be obstruction + 2, but in some templates they're identical (e.g. in `rome_barracks.xml` both are 22×22), in others there is a difference of 0, 1, 3, or even more. To me, this seems rather arbitrary. It would be nice if there were a guide that explained how they're determined. By the way, do you also intend to create additional rubble sizes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 39 minutes ago, Nescio said: Do you mean “will be” or “currently is”? E.g. `rome_civil_centre.xml`: Will be. It's pretty much the case until 6x6 7x7 and 8x8. In the template you gave me 40x40 is 4 * 10 + 4 * 10 so that should be a 10x10 foundation instead of a 8x8 39 minutes ago, Nescio said: Also, two be two fndn_4x4 appear to be slightly larger than one fndn_8x8. Yeah because some of them didn't respect conventions either. They will after I'm done, which might take some more weeks. 39 minutes ago, Nescio said: Yes, how do footprint and obstruction size relate? Often the footprint appear to be obstruction + 2, but in some templates they're identical (e.g. in `rome_barracks.xml` both are 22×22), in others there is a difference of 0, 1, 3, or even more. To me, this seems rather arbitrary. It would be nice if there were a guide that explained how they're determined. Well it's kinda of arbitrary, which IMHO Sucks. Obstruction and height should be defined by the mesh so the closest to the building footprint needs to be a bit bigger so that it's not under the building. A too big obstruction will mean unit using it as a dropsite or attacking it will not go near to hit it. What could work is set the Footprint to the nearest foundation size, and keep the obstruction to the building size. Might lead to overlap though. Maybe @LordGood has some thoughts on that. 40 minutes ago, Nescio said: By the way, do you also intend to create additional rubble sizes? Not in the near future. You can find my todo list here. These kind of tasks kind of make me lose my motivation, because they need to be done, but they don't add a lot to the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 7 hours ago, stanislas69 said: but they don't add a lot to the game. On the contrary, it makes the game feel complete and polished. Keep trucking on, my wayward son. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteTreePaladin Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 44 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: On the contrary, it makes the game feel complete and polished. I agree. And, yes, I actually have noticed rubble size mismatches (and destruction textures, etc.) Every attention to detail and completeness adds value. Even little bits of polishing contribute to the overall shininess. @stanislas69 your work is appreciated by many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted April 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 Foundations and rubble and such might be boring to create, but they are really important and will be used by basically all factions in almost all mods in years to come. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: On the contrary, it makes the game feel complete and polished. Keep trucking on, my wayward son 2 hours ago, WhiteTreePaladin said: I agree. And, yes, I actually have noticed rubble size mismatches (and destruction textures, etc.) Every attention to detail and completeness adds value. Even little bits of polishing contribute to the overall shininess. @stanislas69 your work is appreciated by many. Thanks guys. I'm sure people would notice more the scaffoldings/buildings basis though. I extracted lordgood's to make one for walls you can see it on the edge of one of my screenshot. It's using the scaffolding texture from the main game. Maybe I'll push further. I have too many things on the list. I also need to improve to be able to do material like Lordgood Alexandermb and now BigTiger 2 hours ago, Nescio said: Foundations and rubble and such might be boring to create, but they are really important and will be used by basically all factions in almost all mods in years to come. It's not boring it's tedious and repetitive. You can quickly mess up if you want to do things properly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted April 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 34 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: Maybe I'll push further. I have too many things on the list. I also need to improve Don't put too much pressure on yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Nescio said: Don't put too much pressure on yourself. I know I try but I'm exactly where I have been wanting to be during all the time I was a mere contributor. So now I have to be the changes I wanted for all those years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 22 hours ago, stanislas69 said: height Yes, that's something else I've wondered about. Is it possible to display a footprint box somehow somewhere? Looking at the templates only it's hard to judge which values are carefully chosen and which are arbitrarily copied. And another thing: the precision of footprint and obstruction values. Most heights, widths, and depths and in a '.0', although a few have different values; e.g. `pers_temple.xml` has an obstruction of 17.5×17.5 and the kennel template has 7.5×6.75. Sure, I can see there is a difference between 6.75 and simply 7, however, I'm not sure this precision is actually meaningful. Footprint and obstruction sizes are an approximation, right, so why the decimals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 50 minutes ago, Nescio said: Yes, that's something else I've wondered about. Is it possible to display a footprint box somehow somewhere? Looking at the templates only it's hard to judge which values are carefully chosen and which are arbitrarily copied. In the Actor viewer in Atlas you can. 50 minutes ago, Nescio said: And another thing: the precision of footprint and obstruction values. Most heights, widths, and depths and in a '.0', although a few have different values; e.g. `pers_temple.xml` has an obstruction of 17.5×17.5 and the kennel template has 7.5×6.75. Sure, I can see there is a difference between 6.75 and simply 7, however, I'm not sure this precision is actually meaningful. Footprint and obstruction sizes are an approximation, right, so why the decimals? Well as I said obstruction define how close you can get to the building, so I guess the original author tried to get as close as possible to the building. Footprint however shouldn't be that precise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: In the Actor viewer in Atlas you can. The boundary boxes you mean? However, they seem to be independent from the footprint; whether I give the template a height of 4 or 40 doesn't seem to make any difference in the actor viewer. 24 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: Well as I said obstruction define how close you can get to the building, so I guess the original author tried to get as close as possible to the building. Footprint however shouldn't be that precise. `sele_range.xml`: <Footprint> <Square width="26.5" depth="26.0"/> </Footprint> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 6x6 footprint would be 24x24 7x7 footprint would be 28x28 I guess 7x7 makes sense. Actually you can't see the height footprint. It's something different. So height seems to only be used to define guarding and whether a projectile will hit the structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: Actually you can't see the height footprint. Yes, that's the point: if it can't be viewed, then how can one determine which value is appropiate? Mutatis mutandis for ElevationBonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Nescio said: ElevationBonus That's different. Elevation bonus just adds more range to the tower. The fact that it isn't taken into account in the visualization is a bug ret.attack[type].elevationAdaptedRange = Math.sqrt(ret.attack[type].maxRange * (2 * ret.attack[type].elevationBonus + ret.attack[type].maxRange)); Just had a look. It would seem that the height property of the footprint isn't used anywhere. So it's basically useless. @bb_ can you confirm ? EDIT: I was wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb_ Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 The footprint height value is passed by the getShape function in the footprint component. In the engine it is used in the VisualActor to set the height parameter of a CustomSelectionShape. This the fills some object retrievable by getSelectionBox and that is used in a couple of components. (f.e.in cmpPosition for the height offset of constructions) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, bb_ said: The footprint height value is passed by the getShape function in the footprint component. In the engine it is used in the VisualActor to set the height parameter of a CustomSelectionShape. This the fills some object retrievable by getSelectionBox and that is used in a couple of components. (f.e.in cmpPosition for the height offset of constructions) The object is used but I haven't found any use of the height property. It just sets the value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb_ Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 45 minutes ago, bb_ said: (f.e.in cmpPosition for the height offset of constructions) (Y in that object is the height) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Ah I see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 First part is in. Now missing Spart temple 5x10 → 6x11 Rome temple mars 5x11 → 6x12 Cart Wonder 7 x 14 → 8x15 Athen/Mace Wonder 8 x 15 → 9x16 Sele Wonder/Kush_temple_amun 8x16 → 9x17 Rome civ center 9x9 → 10x10 Spart Wonder 9x16 → 10x17 Rome Wonder 10x13 → 11x14 Pers tacara 10x17 → 11x 8 Iber Wonder 11x11 → 12x12 Kush Wonder 11x15 → 12x16 Ptol Wonder 11x16 → 12x17 Theatron 12x12 → 13x13 Gaul/Brit/Maur/Pers Wonder 15x15 → 16x16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted May 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2019 (edited) On 5/1/2019 at 11:18 PM, stanislas69 said: Spart temple 5x10 → 6x11 Rome temple mars 5x11 → 6x12 Foundation size is footprint / 4, right? I get somewhat different numbers: kush temple amun: 32×62 → 8×16 pers ishtar gate: 40×17 → 10×4 pers taçara: 40×24 → 10×6 rome army camp: 40×40 → 10×10 rome temple mars: 24×44 → 6×11 spart temple: 19×37 → 5×9 And wonders: athen, mace: 28×58 → 7×15 brit, gaul (ought to be replaced, because pre-Celtic): circle, r=30; obstruction 55×55 → 14×14 cart: 29×59 → 7×15 iber: 43×43 → 11×11 kush: 48×66 → 12×16 maur: circle, r=31; obstruction 57×57 → 15×15 pers (ought to be replaced, because pre-Persian): 62×62 → 16×16 rome: 46×54 → 12×14 sele: 29×59 → 7×15 spart: 35×64 → 9×16 To summarize: wide: 10×4, 10×6 long: 5×9, 6×11, 7×15, 8×16, 9×16, 12×14, 12×16 square: 10×10, 11×11, 14×14, 15×15, 16×16 (maybe also add 12×12 and 13×13 to complete the sequence) If you have time, perhaps you could write a trac page on how to create additional foundation sizes in the same style? It's not unlikely that future wonders will have different dimensions (e.g. Terra Magna chin wonder: 48×43 → 12×11) Edited May 7, 2019 by Nescio ce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted May 7, 2019 Report Share Posted May 7, 2019 @Nescio there was Could probably use some images and before it is added to the wiki. As for the size, I think I added + 1 unit (4 sub units) to every dimension to make sure the building would not overlap on the delimitators. I'm a bit worried the big foundations come out weird with the props, but I haven't finished even one yet so it' s probably just me. As for the wonders structures themselves, I should finish my building but it will look too much like the one Sundiata is making to replace the temple. For the britons though, we have the uffington horse, but I don't feel like it's a real wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted May 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2019 44 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: As for the size, I think I added + 1 unit (4 sub units) to every dimension to make sure the building would not overlap on the delimitators. I'm a bit worried the big foundations come out weird with the props, but I haven't finished even one yet so it' s probably just me. Yes, but the footprints are already larger than the actor itself, e.g. spart temple: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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