wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 And about the skin tone discussion in PM? I have six variants for the linen armor at the moment, adding a dark and light skin tone would double the numbers, what I have in mind is have an alternation in skin tone with the six current variants. (So 3 of them will be dark skinned and the other a little lighter) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) @wackyserious I'll just quote @wowgetoffyourcellphone, because he's spot on! He understands the macro-ethnic composition of Kush... So Of the 3 skin colors in my PSDs I was going: Dark: Meroitic, Nuba Medium: Nubian Light: Blemmye/Beja Mind you, "Light" here is still way darker than the other skin colors in the game. I assumed the Swordsmen would be Meroitic, along with pikemen, so I made those dark. The infantry spearmen are specifically Nubian as are the archers, so I made those medium. Then there are other units which are specific ethnicities, which are basically already right there in their unit names, such as Blemmye Camelry, light, and Nuba Hunter, dark with lots of ash/paint. Female citizens I created _light, _medium, and _dark variations since they weren't a specific ethnicity. Edited January 21, 2018 by Sundiata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Forgive me for posting some criticisms On 20/01/2018 at 11:06 PM, stanislas69 said: @Sundiata With the armor Expand The hand should hold the weapon at the end. Holding it half-way significantly reduces the weapon's swing, range, and impact. Also, shouldn't the ancient epsilon axe head be attached to the stick at the three points? E.g.: https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fbaidun.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FWP_EG_1001bw-900x598.jpg&sp=94a22a6c5f322922527f5dad2abaf8e6 On 21/01/2018 at 3:40 AM, wackyserious said: @Sundiata Would this work as a texture for the other Kush hero? VS. Expand The blade seems too long. Let's assume an average male was 1.6m; ancient swords seldom had a blade longer than about 60 cm (please correct me if the khopesh was indeed much longer); therefore the blade ought to be less than a third of the unit's length. Currently it looks more like two-thirds, appropiate for Early Modern (European Renaissance) swords, but not really for Antiquity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @Sundiata So no one will be slightly lighter in skin tone? I'm worried because value or the the transition from light to dark plays a role in harmonizing a composition in art As you can see, even the player color varies in tone, some are darker and the rest are lighter, maybe this just complicates the files but it has subtle effect in general visualization. This thing can be compromised and not brought forward though, just the creativity inside me being a little worried. First guy's texture has the darkest skin tone while the rest uses the medium one. 1st guy and 2nd guy uses the meroitic head by wowgetoffyourcellphone. In your opinion, do they break away from the macro-ethnic composition of the army? Should all Meroitic troops be dark? By the way, I fixed the bronze strap, oversaturation seems minor, you can check it in the game, if it is very noticeable for you guys, then I'll fix it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @wackyserious [Disclaimer], these are very generalist approximations. In reality there is strong overlap between the different groups: Nubian: in this context purely geographic, people from the area between the 1st cataract to the 4th cataract. Mixed with Egyptians. Medium skin Nuba: tribal semi-nomads in the Western desert, sedentary population in Kordofan and Nuba mountains to the South and West of the Kushite heartlands. Dark skin Meroitic: people from the area's around Meroë, and the surrounding Butana steppe. From 4th cataract to the area's beyond the 6th cataract. Dark skin Blemmye: Beja people, nomadic Eastern desert dwellers, camel riders "light" skin, but still pretty dark So: Kush_camel_javelinist "light" skin Kush_cavalry_javelinist Medium skin Kush_cavalry_spearman Medium skin Kush_champion cavalry Dark skin Kush_champion_elephant Dark skin Kush_champion_infantry Who is this guy? Kush_champion_infantry_Amun Medium skin Kush_champion_infantry_apedemak Dark skin Kush_hero_amanirenas Dark skin Kush_hero_arakamani Dark skin Kush_hero_nastasen Medium skin kush_infantry archer Medium skin Kush_infantry_clubman Dark skin Kush_infantry_merc_javelinist Dark skin Kush_infantry_pikeman Dark skin Kush_infantry_spearman Medium skin Kush_infantry_swordsman Dark skin Kush_support_female_citizen all skintones Kush_support_healer Medium skin @Nescio That's not an epsilon axe (which is kind of archaic for this period), it's a Meroitic period Kushite axe (actually Mauryan...) Kushite not holding an axe at the end Khopesh comes in different sizes. Ours is indeed rather large. I'm not too bothered by it though On 21/01/2018 at 10:07 AM, Nescio said: Let's assume an average male was 1.6m Expand Dinka are sometimes noted for their height. With the Tutsi of Rwanda, they are believed to be the tallest people in Africa. Roberts and Bainbridge reported the average height of 182.6 cm (5 ft 11.9 in) in a sample of 52 Dinka Ageir and 181.3 cm (5 ft 11.4 in) in 227 Dinka Ruweng measured in 1953–1954 -wikipedia- South Sudanese men can easily surpass 2 meters! "The Ethiopians to whom Cambyses sent these gifts are reputed to be the tallest and most beautiful of all peoples.” -Herodotus- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 21/01/2018 at 10:33 AM, wackyserious said: So no one will be slightly lighter in skin tone? Expand On 21/01/2018 at 10:33 AM, wackyserious said: In your opinion, do they break away from the macro-ethnic composition of the army? Should all Meroitic troops be dark? Expand Please, feel free to play around with skin tones! I'd love to see different tones for the same units. We're just talking generalities here. On 21/01/2018 at 10:37 AM, Sundiata said: [Disclaimer], these are very generalist approximations. In reality there is strong overlap between the different groups: Expand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted January 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) On 21/01/2018 at 10:07 AM, Nescio said: The blade seems too long. Let's assume an average male was 1.6m; ancient swords seldom had a blade longer than about 60 cm (please correct me if the khopesh was indeed much longer); therefore the blade ought to be less than a third of the unit's length. Currently it looks more like two-thirds, appropiate for Early Modern (European Renaissance) swords, but not really for Antiquity. Expand Yeah, I think the khopesh should be redone too. It has no thickness either, so edge-on it disappears. On 21/01/2018 at 10:37 AM, Sundiata said: Kush_champion_infantry Who is this guy? Expand That's the Noble/Royal Archer. Probably rename to Kush_champion_infantry_archer Edited January 21, 2018 by wowgetoffyourcellphone 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Well then, I will go with what I did, have a slight difference in skin tone but not name the texture with a prefix to not generalize it as something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 21/01/2018 at 10:37 AM, Sundiata said: @Nescio That's not an epsilon axe (which is kind of archaic for this period), it's a Meroitic period Kushite axe (actually Mauryan...) Expand That explains it, thanks for the clarification. On 21/01/2018 at 10:37 AM, Sundiata said: Kushite not holding an axe at the end Expand Not at the end, but not half-way either; it looks more like at 20%. Anyway, try it yourself, grap some kind of stick and swing it, trying for different positions, half-way, at a quarter, at the end. You'll notice a significant improvement if you hold it lower. On 21/01/2018 at 10:37 AM, Sundiata said: Dinka are sometimes noted for their height. With the Tutsi of Rwanda, they are believed to be the tallest people in Africa. Roberts and Bainbridge reported the average height of 182.6 cm (5 ft 11.9 in) in a sample of 52 Dinka Ageir and 181.3 cm (5 ft 11.4 in) in 227 Dinka Ruweng measured in 1953–1954 -wikipedia- South Sudanese men can easily surpass 2 meters! "The Ethiopians to whom Cambyses sent these gifts are reputed to be the tallest and most beautiful of all peoples.” -Herodotus- Expand Yes, nowadays. Currently European males are 20-30 cm longer on average than their counter-parts of three centuries ago. While I won't deny individuals could occassionally exceed two metres (e.g. Goliath), I do believe the average length in Antiquity was clearly shorter than it is today. Anyway, if the man in question was indeed 1.8 m, then the blade is even more in need of a length reduction (2/3 of 1.8m is 1.2m, while 2/3 of 1.6m is 1.06m). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 21/01/2018 at 10:52 AM, Nescio said: Not at the end, but not half-way either; it looks more like at 20%. Anyway, try it yourself, grap some kind of stick and swing it, trying for different positions, half-way, at a quarter, at the end. You'll notice a significant improvement if you hold it lower. Expand You're right, I just love teasing you On 21/01/2018 at 10:52 AM, Nescio said: Yes, nowadays. Currently European males are 20-30 cm longer on average than their counter-parts of three centuries ago. While I won't deny individuals could occassionally exceed two metres (e.g. Goliath), I do believe the average length in Antiquity was clearly shorter than it is today. Expand These are Africans... Some are pygmies, some are giants. In Sudan, they've been tall since the dawn of history. There were Neolithic Saharan populations that easily reached 1.90m... The Dinka that were measured in the study didn't experience significant cultural changes, and no dietary changes for thousands of years... They are the same people. Europeans in general experienced dramatic environmental, dietary, cultural and ethnic changes through the same period which account for the changes in height. On 21/01/2018 at 10:52 AM, Nescio said: Anyway, if the man in question was indeed 1.8 m, then the blade is even more in need of a length reduction Expand Hmmm, then I won't oppose a (small) length-reduction. Just a little though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @wackyserious Can you fix the lioncloth as and the armband saturation @Sundiata mentioned ? @Sundiata @Nescio Should I change the Khopesh size then ? What about the axe. I currently only tweaked the color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @stanislas69 If it's not too much effort, Axe and Khopesh could both be sclaled down a little (but I don't think it should be too much) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Do you have an idea of the ratio ? .9 .8 etc ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @stanislas69 What's wrong with the loincloth? Also, can you check the arm band in game, it looks fine to me, since that dark area is a dodge/burn effect to create depth/shadows. @Sundiata Did I violated historicity with the gems/player color that I attached to the scale armor? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @wackyserious Dunno look at the post at the top of the page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 These guys are starting to look like Skyrim Dwemers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Quote Expand @Sundiata By the loincloth problem, are you referring to the improper mesh that was used above? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 21/01/2018 at 11:19 AM, wackyserious said: Did I violated historicity with the gems/player color that I attached to the scale armor? Expand Absolutely not, it's even more historical like that... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) On 21/01/2018 at 11:08 AM, Sundiata said: The Dinka that were measured in the study didn't experience significant cultural changes, and no dietary changes for thousands of years... Expand Hard to prove for a people with no written history On 21/01/2018 at 11:08 AM, Sundiata said: Hmmm, then I won't oppose a (small) length-reduction. Just a little though Expand On 21/01/2018 at 11:19 AM, stanislas69 said: Do you have an idea of the ratio ? .9 .8 etc ? Expand Man 1.8 m, sword 0.8 m, blade 0.6 m, handle 0.2 m, works out at a ratio of 9:4:3:1. Axe I don't know, probably something similar. I think it's realistic if the total weapon length is about half the total man length. So assuming the sword is currently about 70% the unit's length, then multiply the sword length by 0.7 (because .7^2=.49). Edited January 21, 2018 by Nescio ce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @Sundiata One more thing, the one I asked on PM Quote What type of hero would Nastasen and Arakamani be? Cavalry? Infantry? Elephant? Expand Currently they are using Ptolemaic Kingdom placeholders, one Hannibal's elephant and a Royal Agema Cavalry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 21/01/2018 at 11:30 AM, Nescio said: Hard to prove for a people with no written history Expand Why do you think written history (or the lack thereof) proves anything? I rely mostly on the archaeological record. Written history is a nice extra, but it becomes most valuable when it's backed by something tangible. The written history describing the ancestors of Dinka and related populations corroborate the archaeological record. No major changes for thousands of years... They're a stone-age Neolithic holdover, to be blunt, but they are ethnically closely related to the much more advanced Meroites, and recruited/incorporated in significant numbers. On 21/01/2018 at 11:46 AM, wackyserious said: @Sundiata One more thing, the one I asked on PM Quote What type of hero would Nastasen and Arakamani be? Cavalry? Infantry? Elephant? Expand Currently they are using Ptolemaic Kingdom placeholders, one Hannibal's elephant and a Royal Agema Cavalry Expand Sorry, I can't keep up Nastasen: horse Arakamani: elephant Amanirenas: chariot (just kidding , (not really), or infantry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Reduced the size a bit, tilted the lion head @wowgetoffyourcellphone @Sundiata @Nescio 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 21/01/2018 at 11:54 AM, Sundiata said: Why do you think written history (or the lack thereof) proves anything? Expand Actually I do not think historical records necessarily prove anything, however: On 21/01/2018 at 11:54 AM, Sundiata said: I rely mostly on the archaeological record. Expand Archaeology can only provide evidence for what can be found, not for what can't be found or is lost. Or for something intangible, such as no “significant cultural changes”, which to me sounds either arrogant or ignorant. On 21/01/2018 at 11:54 AM, Sundiata said: Written history is a nice extra, but it becomes most valuable when it's backed by something tangible. Expand I fully agree. Archaeology, historical records, comparative linguistics, and genetic sequencing can show indicate something individually, but only in combination with each other they become really valuable. On 21/01/2018 at 12:04 PM, stanislas69 said: Reduced the size a bit, tilted the lion head @wowgetoffyourcellphone @Sundiata @Nescio Expand The sword blade seems still longer than the man's leg, so perhaps you could shorten it a bit more? The axe is partially obscured by the rotation of the unit, however, the axe head shown about a dozen posts earlier was less than 15 cm, so perhaps use that as an indication for the total axe length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackyserious Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 @Sundiata Any suggestion to enhance our guy Nastasen? Which props should he use? Weapons, shields, plus horse props NASTASEN OF KUSH - WIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted January 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Needs the cobra on his forehead, right @Sundiata? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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