Crowd-Sourced Civ: Seleucids

[Phalanx]

Okay, this totally might be false, but I have a few comment about the Romanized Swords.

I still think they should be referred as Argyraspides Romahicos, because the 5,000 swords seen at Daphne were taken from the 10,000 Argyrasdpides Phalangites (its is mentioned that there were only 5,000 of the phalangite silver shields present).  

But I think that they should mostly be wearing chain mail (I know some of the actors are, but a lot of them have a linothorax)

And this one might not have a good reception, but I think they should have a scutum-like shield. Or at least one similar to a Hastatus. Because it's stated that Antiochus IV loved all things roman, which is why he decided to reform the infantry. It think it's weird that if he loved all this roman stuff so much as to directly copy it, he wouldn't copy the shield, which is arguably one of the most innovative parts of the Hastatus.  But that is all just my opinion, it might be totally wrong, but it seems no-one (sourcewise) seems to know exactly how the Silver Shield Swords were equipped, besides them having chain mail.

[Genava55]

  On 25/09/2019 at 6:33 PM, Phalanx said:

And this one might not have a good reception, but I think they should have a scutum-like shield. Or at least one similar to a Hastatus. Because it's stated that Antiochus IV loved all things roman, which is why he decided to reform the infantry.

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Where is the limit? Should they have used pilum and montefortino helmets?

[Phalanx]

  On 25/09/2019 at 7:12 PM, Genava55 said:

Where is the limit? Should they have used pilum and montefortino helmets?

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Yep, that is a fair question. I honestly have no idea. I cannot find any sources about what they actually had.

[Phalanx]

I was thinking something along these lines. I found a single source describing the Romanized Seleucid Shield as a scutum-like shield, not a thureos, but that is only a single source.

[Genava55]

Polybius 30.25 : 1 This same king when he heard of the games celebrated in Macedonia by Aemilius Paullus the Roman general, ambitious of surpassing Paullus in magnificence sent out embassies and sacred missions to the towns to announce the games he was about to give at Daphne, so that people in Greece were very eager to visit Antioch then. 2 The festival opened with a procession composed as follows: 3 It was headed by five thousand men in the prime of life armed after the Roman fashion and wearing breastplates of chain-armour. Next came five thousand Mysians, 4 and immediately behind them three thousand Cilicians armed in the manner of light infantry, wearing gold crowns. 5 Next came three thousand Thracians and five thousand Gauls. They were followed by twenty thousand Macedonians of whom ten thousand bore golden shields,  p145 five thousand brazen shields and the rest silver shields. 6 Next marched two hundred and fifty pairs of gladiators, and behind them a thousand horsemen from Nisa and three thousand from Antioch itself, most of whom had crowns and trappings of gold and the rest trappings of silver. Next to these came the so‑called "companion cavalry," numbering about a thousand, all with gold trappings, and next the regiment of "royal friends" of equal number and similarly accoutred; next a thousand picked horse followed by the so‑called "agema", supposed to be the crack cavalry corps, numbering about a thousand. Last of all marched the "cataphract" or mailed horse, the horses and men being armed in complete mail, as the name indicated. All the above wore purple surcoats in many cases embroidered with gold and heraldic designs. 11 Next came a hundred chariots drawn by six horses and forty drawn by four horses, and then a chariot drawn by four elephants and another drawn by a pair, and finally thirty-six elephants in single file with their housings.

Book - THE SELEUCID ARMY Organization and Tactics in the Great Campaigns: "The Seleucid phalanx at Beith-Zacharia is indeed described by I Macc, as 'equipped with chain mail' , but the source, perhaps an eye witness, was evidently carried away by the sight of the one contingent armed in Roman style, which is recorded as being similarly equipped at Daphne (Polyb. 30.25.3). The generalization may also be attributable to the positioning of the 'Roman' infantry in the advance 'elephant divisions', which were first to enter the defile (see p.181 below)."

Probably that the most "extraordinary" fashion for observers at that time is the chain mail, not usually adopted by the Hellenes. I cannot rule out the possibility that it is simply Thorakitai slightly inspired by the Romans.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Genava55

[wackyserious]

  On 25/09/2019 at 7:36 PM, Phalanx said:

I was thinking something along these lines. I found a single source describing the Romanized Seleucid Shield as a scutum-like shield, not a thureos, but that is only a single source.

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Hmm, I am thinking of something like, Hellenistic styled tunic and boots, then a lorica hamata and subarmalis.

[Genava55]

Some talk:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/51155-EB-Imitation-Legions-Thuerophoroi

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?628825-Hellenistic-romanized-sword-bearer

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wackyserious

I was searching Numidians and I found a source.

 

check the Phalangite  with asiatic influence .

  Quote

This figure is based on two terracotta plaques found in Campania, showing troops in a mixture of Macedonian and Asiatic dress and equipment which suggests they are from a Greek army in the east, probably the Seleucid. Alexander’s Persian phalangites, the Successors’ Asian pantodapoi, Mithridates V1 of Pontos’ later troops, would probably be similar. The trousers are a sure sign of “‘barbarian”’ influence, and a figure on the other plaque adds long sleeves. The cuirass bends with the movement of the body, showing it to be linen or leather rather than plate. There seems no warrant for the view that infantry of the Hellenistic kingdoms changed to metal armour, as is sometimes suggested. Asklepiodotos mentions corselets, as does Plutarch describing Philopoimen’s Achaians, but neither say they were metal, and their wording would be equally appropriate to leather. Conversely, illustrations of infantry in non-metallic corselets are common, while most of those shown in plate cuirasses wear officers’ waist sashes. It seems general practice, then, that only officers wore metal armour. Confirmation for the Seleucids is provided by reliefs of warriors in similar corselets to this figure’s, from near Ephesos, possibly from the tomb of Antiochos II Theos, who died there in 246. They have short sleeves and bare legs; most have crested Attic helmets in contrast to the uncrested Thracian type shown here and in 37a (from coins of the Seleucid usurper Tryphon, 142-139) though one of the Ephesos figures does wear the helmet in 37b. Perhaps the Ephesos figures are based on the argyraspides, the Seleucid guard infantry, who might be expected to present a more Hellenic appearance, with bare legs and greaves, and to wear crests. They fought “armed in the Macedonian manner” as phalangites. Except for an uncertain reference to a forced march in Bactria, they are not often found on mobile operations such as Alexander's hypaspists had been used for; they were not used, for instance, when Antiochos III stormed mountain passes. There is thus no reason to believe that they had an alternative lighter style of weaponry in Alexandrian style.

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[Lion.Kanzen]

[Carltonus]

Before registering on this Forum, had to see some interesting threads such as this one. Has work already been done on garrisoning troops into elephants or chariots (Hyrule Conquest already had such a function mounting a pair of archers into a chariot, what faction was that?). That would add an Archer champion to the Seleucid list. It would be interesting to see pikemen on the walls.

@Nescio, you said there are 3 champions (2 extra because of an upgrade) for this faction but someone said it does not historically make sense because the chariots augment the pike formations (frontline) and cavalry (hammer and anvil). borg-'s mod removed the Traditional/Reform upgrade so all four can be recruited, but will the upgrade choices be removed on future releases?

[Stan`]

That would be https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1958

[Nescio]

  On 17/04/2020 at 3:26 PM, Carltonus said:

@Nescio, you said there are 3 champions (2 extra because of an upgrade) for this faction but someone said it does not historically make sense because the chariots augment the pike formations (frontline) and cavalry (hammer and anvil). borg-'s mod removed the Traditional/Reform upgrade so all four can be recruited, but will the upgrade choices be removed on future releases?

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Currently in 0 A.D. the Seleucids have five champions (pikeman, swordsman, cavalry, chariot, elephant), but players have to choose between “traditional” (pikeman + chariot) or “Romanized” (swordsman + cavalry), so effectively they have only three.

Historically this doesn't make sense, since heavy cavalry was used in combination with pikemen; e.g. at the Battle of Magnesia (190 BC) the Seleucids fielded c. 16000 pikemen and c. 8000 champion cavalry, as well as scythed chariots and war elephants (Livy 37.40). Therefore I for one would be in favour of removing this artificial choice.

[Phalanx]

I know I'm a broken record, but I'm still a fan of renaming the sword unit to Argyraspides Thorakitai.  The only time we see these "Romanized" units were at the Parade of Daphne, and Polybius and Bar Chovka suggest that they were Argyraspides Phalangites who were retrained, with Antiochus's intent to first reform the entire Argyraspides unit to this style (as it was the Royal Guard unit and most important) and then adopt it along the rest of the Seleucid army. 

Renaming it makes the unit feel more elite also, as opposed to just a cheap copy.  I remember when I first downloaded the game, I didn't know if my "Romanized Thorakitai" were just copies of Principes, or if they were actually an elite unit.  Renaming would help players make that connection (and make the unit feel cooler XD )

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

"Argyraspides" indicates "Silver Shield." One might wonder why these guys don't have silver shields.  There's no indication what this corps of men was actually called, so something more descriptive like "Romanized Swordsman," is just as good as anything else.

[Phalanx]

  On 23/04/2020 at 4:32 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

There's no indication what this corps of men was actually called, so something more descriptive like "Romanized Swordsman," is just as good as anything else.

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That's a fair point! Just seems underwhelming imo 

[Nescio]

  On 23/04/2020 at 4:19 PM, Phalanx said:

I know I'm a broken record, but I'm still a fan of renaming the sword unit to Argyraspides Thorakitai.  The only time we see these "Romanized" units were at the Parade of Daphne, and Polybius and Bar Chovka suggest that they were Argyraspides Phalangites who were retrained, with Antiochus's intent to first reform the entire Argyraspides unit to this style (as it was the Royal Guard unit and most important) and then adopt it along the rest of the Seleucid army. 

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Quoting Wikipedia? That's not exactly what Polybius says. The relevant section is Plb 30.25:

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ὁ δ᾽ αὐτὸς οὗτος βασιλεὺς ἀκούσας τοὺς ἐν τῇ Μακεδονίᾳ συντετελεσμένους ἀγῶνας ὑπὸ Αἰμιλίου Παύλου τοῦ Ῥωμαίων στρατηγοῦ, βουλόμενος τῇ μεγαλοδωρίᾳ ὑπερᾶραι τὸν Παῦλον ἐξέπεμψε πρέσβεις καὶ θεωροὺς εἰς τὰς πόλεις καταγγελοῦντας τοὺς ἐσομένους ἀγῶνας ὑπ᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ Δάφνης, ὡς πολλὴν γενέσθαι τῶν Ἑλλήνων σπουδὴν εἰς τὴν ὡς αὐτὸν ἄφιξιν. [2] ἀρχὴν δ᾽ ἐποιήσατο τῆς πανηγύρεως τὴν πομπείαν οὕτως ἐπιτελεσθεῖσαν. [3] καθηγοῦντό τινες Ῥωμαϊκὸν ἔχοντες καθοπλισμὸν ἐν θώραξιν ἁλυσιδωτοῖς, ἄνδρες ἀκμάζοντες ταῖς ἡλικίαις πεντακισχίλιοι· μεθ᾽ οὓς Μυσοὶ πεντακισχίλιοι. [4] συνεχεῖς δ᾽ ἦσαν Κίλικες εἰς τὸν τῶν εὐζώνων τρόπον καθωπλισμένοι τρισχίλιοι, χρυσοῦς ἔχοντες στεφάνους. [5] ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις Θρᾷκες τρισχίλιοι καὶ Γαλάται πεντακισχίλιοι. τούτοις ἐπέβαλλον Μακεδόνες δισμύριοι καὶ χαλκάσπιδες πεντακισχίλιοι, ἄλλοι δὲ ἀργυράσπιδες, οἷς ἐπηκολούθει μονομάχων ζεύγη διακόσια τετταράκοντα. [6] τούτων κατόπιν ἦσαν ἱππεῖς Νισαῖοι μὲν χίλιοι πολιτικοὶ δὲ τρισχίλιοι, ὧν οἱ μὲν πλείους ἦσαν χρυσοφάλαροι καὶ χρυσοστέφανοι, οἱ δ᾽ ἄλλοι ἀργυροφάλαροι. [7] μετὰ δὲ τούτους ἦσαν οἱ λεγόμενοι Ἑταῖροι ἱππεῖς· οὗτοι δὲ ἦσαν εἰς χιλίους, πάντες χρυσοφάλαροι. τούτοις συνεχὲς ἦν τὸ τῶν φίλων σύνταγμα, [8] ἴσον καὶ κατὰ τὸ πλῆθος καὶ κατὰ τὸν κόσμον. ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις ἐπίλεκτοι χίλιοι, οἷς ἐπηκολούθει τὸ καλούμενον ἄγημα, κράτιστον εἶναι δοκοῦν σύστημα τῶν ἱππέων, [9] περὶ χιλίους. τελευταία δ᾽ ἦν ἡ κατάφρακτος ἵππος, οἰκείως τῇ προσηγορίᾳ τῶν ἵππων καὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν ἐσκεπασμένων τοῖς ὅπλοις· ἦσαν δὲ καὶ αὐτοὶ χίλιοι καὶ πεντακόσιοι. [10] πάντες δ᾽ οἱ προειρημένοι εἶχον πορφυρᾶς ἐφαπτίδας, πολλοὶ δὲ καὶ διαχρύσους καὶ ζῳωτάς. [11] ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις ἕξιππα μὲν ἦν ἑκατόν, τέθριππα δὲ τετταράκοντα, ἔπειτα ἐλεφάντων ἅρμα καὶ συνωρίς. καθ᾽ ἕνα δὲ εἵποντο ἐλέφαντες διεσκευασμένοι τριάκοντα καὶ ἕξ.

τὴν δ᾽ ἄλλην πομπὴν λέγειν ἐστὶ δυσέφικτον, [12] ὡς ἐν κεφαλαίῳ δὲ λεκτέον. ἔφηβοι μὲν γὰρ ἐπόμπευσαν εἰς ὀκτακοσίους, χρυσοῦς ἔχοντες στεφάνους, βόες δ᾽ εὐτραφεῖς περὶ χιλίους, θεωρίδες δὲ βραχὺ λείπουσαι τριακοσίων, ἐλεφάντων δὲ ὀδόντες ὀκτακόσιοι. [13] τὸ δὲ τῶν ἀγαλμάτων πλῆθος οὐ δυνατὸν ἐξηγήσασθαι· πάντων γὰρ τῶν παρ᾽ ἀνθρώποις λεγομένων ἢ νομιζομένων θεῶν ἢ δαιμόνων, προσέτι δὲ ἡρώων εἴδωλα διήγετο, τὰ μὲν κεχρυσωμένα, τὰ δ᾽ ἠμφιεσμένα στολαῖς διαχρύσοις. [14] καὶ πᾶσι τούτοις οἱ προσήκοντες μῦθοι κατὰ τὰς παραδεδομένας ἱστορίας ἐν διασκευαῖς πολυτελέσι παρέκειντο. [15] εἵπετο δ᾽ αὐτοῖς καὶ Νυκτὸς εἴδωλον καὶ Ἡμέρας, Γῆς τε καὶ Οὐρανοῦ, καὶ Ἠοῦς καὶ Μεσημβρίας. [16] τὸ δὲ τῶν χρυσωμάτων καὶ ἀργυρωμάτων πλῆθος οὕτως ἄν τις ὑπονοήσειεν ὅσον ἦν· ἑνὸς γὰρ τῶν φίλων, Διονυσίου τοῦ ἐπιστολιαγράφου, χίλιοι παῖδες ἐπόμπευσαν ἀργυρώματα ἔχοντες, ὧν οὐδὲν ἐλάττον᾽ ὁλκὴν εἶχεν δραχμῶν χιλίων. [17] βασιλικοὶ δὲ παῖδες παρῆλθον ἑξακόσιοι χρυσώματα ἔχοντες. ἔπειτα γυναῖκες ἐκ χρυσῶν καλπίδων μύροις ἔρραινον, εἰς διακοσίας. [18] ταύταις δ᾽ ἑξῆς ἐπόμπευον ἐν χρυσόποσι μὲν φορείοις ὀγδοήκοντα γυναῖκες, ἐν ἀργυρόποσι δὲ πεντακόσιαι καθήμεναι, πολυτελῶς διεσκευασμέναι. [19] καὶ τῆς μὲν πομπῆς τὰ ἐπιφανέστατα ταῦτα ἦν.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb.+30.25&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0233

 25 1 This same king when he heard of the games celebrated in Macedonia by Aemilius Paullus the Roman general, ambitious of surpassing Paullus in magnificence sent out embassies and sacred missions to the towns to announce the games he was about to give at Daphne, so that people in Greece were very eager to visit Antioch then. 2 The festival opened with a procession composed as follows: 3 It was headed by five thousand men in the prime of life armed after the Roman fashion and wearing breastplates of chain-armour. Next came five thousand Mysians, 4 and immediately behind them three thousand Cilicians armed in the manner of light infantry, wearing gold crowns. 5 Next came three thousand Thracians and five thousand Gauls. They were followed by twenty thousand Macedonians of whom ten thousand bore golden shields, five thousand brazen shields and the rest silver shields. 6 Next marched two hundred and fifty pairs of gladiators, and behind them a thousand horsemen from Nisa and three thousand from Antioch itself, most of whom had crowns and trappings of gold and the rest trappings of silver. Next to these came the so‑called "companion cavalry," numbering about a thousand, all with gold trappings, and next the regiment of "royal friends" of equal number and similarly accoutred; next a thousand picked horse followed by the so‑called "agema", supposed to be the crack cavalry corps, numbering about a thousand. Last of all marched the "cataphract" or mailed horse, the horses and men being armed in complete mail, as the name indicated. All the above wore purple surcoats in many cases embroidered with gold and heraldic designs. 11 Next came a hundred chariots drawn by six horses and forty drawn by four horses, and then a chariot drawn by four elephants and another drawn by a pair, and finally thirty-six elephants in single file with their housings.

12 It is a difficult task to describe the rest of the procession but I must attempt to give its main features. About eight hundred young men wearing gold crowns made part of it as well as about a thousand fat cattle and nearly three hundred cows presented by the various sacred missions and eight hundred ivory tusks. 13 The vast quantity of images it is impossible to enumerate. For representations of all the gods and spirits mentioned or worshipped by men and of all the heroes were carried along, some gilded and others draped in garments embroidered with gold, and they were all accompanied by representations executed in precious materials of the myths relating to them as traditionally narrated. 15 Behind them came images of Night and Day, of Earth and Heaven, and of Dawn and Midday. 16 The quantity of gold and silver plate may be estimated from what follows. The slaves of one of the royal "friends," Dionysius, the private secretary, marched along carrying articles of silver plate none of them weighing less than a thousand drachmae, 17 and six hundred of the king's own slaves went by bearing articles of gold plate. Next there were about two hundred women sprinkling the crowd with perfumes from golden urns, 18 and these were followed by eighty women seated in litters with golden feet and five hundred in litters with silver feet, all richly dressed. 19 Such were the more remarkable features of the procession.

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/30*.html#25

I've highlighted the relevant sentences in bold. There are some notable differences between text and translation, one of them that the ten thousand golden shields aren't mentioned in the Greek, which is interesting. When in doubt, consult a modern critical edition, which I did: here is the relevant page from the 1985 Teubner edition:

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What is clear is that there were 5000 youths in chainmail (“Roman fashion”), which were not part of the 20000 pikemen (“Macedonians”), of which 5000 had brass/bronze/copper shields (apparently the more prestigious) and 15000 silver shields.

  On 23/04/2020 at 4:32 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

"Argyraspides" indicates "Silver Shield." One might wonder why these guys don't have silver shields.  

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It does not necessarily mean their shields were made out of solid silver (which would be rather impractical); they had shields with some silver mark, to indicate they're the king's.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 23/04/2020 at 5:50 PM, Nescio said:

What is clear is that there were 5000 youths in chainmail (“Roman fashion”), which were not part of the 20000 pikemen (“Macedonians”), of which 5000 had brass/bronze/copper shields (apparently the more prestigious) and 15000 silver shields.

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Mild misinterpretation^

  Quote

They were followed by twenty thousand Macedonians of whom ten thousand bore golden shields, five thousand brazen shields and the rest silver shields.

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20,000 "Macedonians" = 

10,000 Golden Shields

5,000 Bronze Shields

5,000 Silver Shields

[Nescio]

  On 23/04/2020 at 5:56 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Mild misinterpretation^

20,000 "Macedonians" = 

10,000 Golden Shields

5,000 Bronze Shields

5,000 Silver Shields

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Please reread my post: the 10000 golden shields are not in the Greek text.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 23/04/2020 at 6:00 PM, Nescio said:

Please reread my post: the 10000 golden shields are not in the Greek text.

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So, this indicates the Silver Shields should be the standard pikeman, while the Bronze shields (more prestigious) should be the champion? 

[Nescio]

  On 23/04/2020 at 6:03 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

So, this indicates the Silver Shields should be the standard pikeman, while the Bronze shields (more prestigious) should be the champion? 

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No. We know the silver shields were the elite of the Seleucid infantry, e.g. from Polybius' description (book V) of the Battle of Raphia between Antiochus III and Ptolemy IV (the latter won, because the former's 10000 silvershields + 20000 phalangites was outnumbered by the latter's 25000 Macedonians + 20000 Egyptians).

What the parade of Antiochus IV (Plb 30.25.5) indicates is that the bronze shields were also “champions”, whereas in 0 A.D. they're simply village phase citizen soldiers.

[Nescio]

  On 23/04/2020 at 6:03 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

So, this indicates the Silver Shields should be the standard pikeman, while the Bronze shields (more prestigious) should be the champion? 

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Also Livy on the battle of Magnesia between Antiochus III and Scipio (Livy 37.40):

[7] ab eadem parte, paulum producto cornu, regia cohors erat; [8] argyraspides a genere armorum appellabantur;

i.e. the royal cohort were called silver-shields because of their outfit.

[EDIT]: Livy 37.40 in full:

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40. regia acies varia magis multis gentibus, dissimilitudine armorum auxiliorumque erat. decem et sex milia peditum more Macedonum armati fuere, qui phalangitae appellabantur. haec media acies fuit, in fronte in decem partes divisa; [2] partes eas interpositis binis elephantis distinguebat; a fronte introrsus in duos et triginta ordines armatorum acies patebat. [3] hoc et roboris in regiis copiis erat, et perinde @#$% alia specie tum eminentibus tantum inter armatos elephantis magnum terrorem praebebat. [4] ingentes ipsi erant; addebant speciem frontalia et cristae et tergo impositae turres turribusque superstantes praeter rectorem quaterni armati. [5] ad latus dextrum phalangitarum mille et quingentos Gallograecorum pedites opposuit. his tria milia equitum loricatorum — cataphractos ipsi appellant — adiunxit. addita his ala mille ferme equitum; [6] agema eam vocabant; Medi erant, lecti viri, et eiusdem regionis mixti multarum gentium equites. continens his grex sedecim elephantorum est oppositus in subsidiis. [7] ab eadem parte, paulum producto cornu, regia cohors erat; [8] argyraspides a genere armorum appellabantur; Dahae deinde, equites sagittarii, mille et ducenti; tum levis armatura, trium milium, pari ferme numero, pars Cretenses pars Tralles; duo milia et quingenti Mysi sagittarii his adiuncti erant. [9] extremum cornu claudebant quattuor milia, mixti Cyrtii funditores et Elymaei sagittarii. [10] ab laevo cornu phalangitis adiuncti erant Gallograeci pedites mille et quingenti et similiter his armati duo milia Cappadocum — [11] ab Ariarathe missi erant regi —; inde auxiliares mixti omnium generum, duo milia septingenti, et tria milia cataphractorum equitum et mille alii equites, regia ala levioribus tegumentis suis equorumque, alio haud dissimili habitu: Syri plerique erant Phrygibus et Lydis immixti. [12] ante hunc equitatum falcatae quadrigae et cameli. quos appellant dromadas. his insidebant Arabes sagittarii, gladios tenuis habentes longos quaterna cubita, ut ex tanta altitudine contingere hostem possent. [13] inde alia multitudo, par ei, quae in dextro cornu erat: primi Tarentini, deinde Gallograecorum equitum duo milia et quingenti, inde Neocretes mille et eodem armatu Cares et Cilices mille et quingenti et totidem Tralles et quattuor milia caetratorum: [14] Pisidae erant et Pamphylii et Lycii; tum Cyrtiorum et Elymaeorum paria in dextro cornu locatis auxilia, et sedecim elephanti modico intervallo distantes.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv.+37+40&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0178

XL. The king's battle-line was more varied, made up of many races and auxiliary forces differently armed. There were sixteen thousand infantry armed in the Macedonian fashion, who are called phalangitae. [7] They formed the centre of the line, and their frontage was divided into ten sections; these sections were separated by intervals in which two elephants each were placed; from the front the formation extended thirty-two ranks in depth. [8] This was the main strength of the king's army, and it caused great terror, not only from its general appearance, but by reason of the elephants, standing out especially conspicuously among the soldiers. They were of great size; head-armour and crests and towers placed upon their backs, and, in addition to the driver, four soldiers riding in each tower, added to their impressiveness. On the right of the phalangitae he stationed fifteen hundred Galatian infantry. [9] To these he added three thousand armoured cavalry —they call them cataphracti. In addition to these there was a squadron of about a thousand cavalry; they called it the agema; they were Medes, picked men, and cavalry from many races in the same region mingled with them. [10] Adjoining them a herd of sixteen elephants was posted in reserve. [11] On this side, the flank being advanced a little, was the royal bodyguard; they were called argyraspides from the character of their equipment; then the Dahae, mounted archers, to the number of twelve hundred; then the light infantry, three thousand in number, about equally divided between Cretans and Tralli; to them two thousand five hundred Mysian archers were added. The extremity of this flank consisted of four thousand mixed Cyrtians, slingers, and Elymaeans, archers. [12] On the left flank, next the phalangitae, were posted fifteen hundred Galatian infantry and two thousand Cappadocians similarly armed —they had been sent to the king by Ariarathes; then twenty-seven hundred auxiliaries mixed from all races, and three thousand armoured cavalry and one thousand other cavalry, the royal squadron, with lighter armour for themselves and their horses, but otherwise with equipment not unlike the rest; they were mostly Syrians mingled with Phrygians and Lydians. [13] In front of this cavalry were scythe-bearing chariots and camels of the breed called dromedaries. These were ridden by Arab archers carrying slender swords four cubits long, that they might be able to reach the enemy from so great a height. Then came another great crowd, corresponding to that on the right flank: first the Tarentini, then twenty-five hundred Galatian cavalry, next a thousand Neocretans and fifteen hundred Carians and Cilicians similarly equipped, and the same number of Tralli and four thousand “targeteers”: [14] these were Pisidians and Pamphylians and Lycians; then auxiliaries of the Cyrtians and Elymaeans equal to those stationed on the right flank, and sixteen elephants a short distance away.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv.+37+40&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0165

Their position actually suggests Livy's silver shields here could be cavalry.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Nescio
Livy 37.40

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 23/04/2020 at 6:23 PM, Nescio said:

What the parade of Antiochus IV (Plb 30.25.5) indicates is that the bronze shields were also “champions”, whereas in 0 A.D. they're simply village phase citizen soldiers.

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Okay, so from a gameplay standpoint it would be problematic to have 2 pike champions and no citizen soldier pikeman. Thoughts? 

[Nescio]

  On 23/04/2020 at 6:45 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Okay, so from a gameplay standpoint it would be problematic to have 2 pike champions and no citizen soldier pikeman. Thoughts? 

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That's not what I'm saying. The Seleucids certainly did call up and field large numbers of citizen pikemen, but those were not called bronze shields.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 23/04/2020 at 6:49 PM, Nescio said:

That's not what I'm saying.

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I'm not accusing you of saying anything. 

 

  Quote

The Seleucids certainly did call up and field large numbers of citizen pikemen, but those were not called bronze shields.

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Maybe then, we call the citizen soldier pikeman something else. Phalangites Makedonoios, perhaps. 

[Nescio]

  On 23/04/2020 at 6:53 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Phalangites Makedonoios, perhaps. 

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That would basically be saying twice the same; just φαλαγγίτης “phalangitēs” is fine. Same for the Ptolemies. (Those Egyptians were an emergency levy.)

We know they were settlers, i.e. had land in a κληρουχία “klērouchia”. But in 0 A.D. military colonies are basically glorified mercenary camps.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Nescio
cleruchy